examples of III-IV
Sofgirl, can you give some examples of what class III-IV rivers you have been on or are considering? I think the reason you’re getting some of the less helpful answers you’re getting is that there seems to have been a change in recent years in what is considered to be class III and IV rapids, with a general trend of deflation (arguably because of a prior trend of unfounded inflation).
Adding to the confusion is the tendency of local guides to give somewhat higher ratings to their own rivers than to others. Also, there is a difference in whether to describe a river segment by it’s most difficult single rapid versus what predominates.
Thus, today, some people would argue that a true class IV river is generally considered to be one that is so difficult that you would not normally consider carrying along any other gear than what you need on the water - hence the perceived contradiction between a boat that is good for class IV rapids and one that is good for expeditions.
I’m guessing that what you are really looking for is an expedition boat that can handle some fairly serious rapids while fully loaded, up to an occasional isolated class III-IV rapid. Does that sound about right? On the other hand, it may be that you really are looking for a boat that can be configured for serious whitewater and that can handle a long chain of continuous class IV water on one trip, and that can also be configured for a week-long expedition on somewhat milder whitewater on another trip. If so, that would result in a different set of recommendations.
Class IV - no way in a Penobscot
and no way tandem, unless you are a expert!
With that said, I have a Penobscot and enjoy it tandem with my wife in Class I, Class II and occasionally III when we feel brave.
Cheers,
JackL
I think you need to read Cliff Roberston
and his discussions of running long rocky class 3 in the wilderness. He helped design a canoe for such conditions. I don’t recall the name, maybe the “Alaskan,” but you can go to the Bell canoe site to see it.
Running rapids in a loaded tandem canoe is very different from running them solo in a WW canoe full of float bags. You ARE NOT going to run class 4 tandem with a boat full of gear, and often you will portage, or at least portage the gear, to run class 3. It’s not just a matter of skill level, it has to do with being way off in the wilderness where swamping, wrapping around rocks, etc., are not funny. You just can’t risk those things.
Floatation and Gear Storage
Actually, there are people who stash their gear packs beneath their floatation bags. P-net's ericnyre has posted about this a few times, and apparently it works pretty well. In any case, don't underestimate the floatation that's supplied by normal packs. At 5330 cubic inches, a standard #3 canoe pack would need to be loaded with more than 190 pounds of gear before losing buoyancy. Since the normal load in such a pack is quite a bit less than half of that, you can probably count on getting well over 100 pounds of floatation from a single pack, more if it's "loaded to the gills" (since the volume is expandable by means of the adjustable top flap). On the occasions I've see loaded packs end up in the water, they float with about one-quarter, perhaps sometimes one-third, of their volume below water, indicating that they would need to be three to four times heavier to sink. Float bags being as big as they are, and packs being reasonably buoyant, stashing loaded packs beneath float bags would not subtract a very large amount from your overall floatation. Oh, putting gear under the center float bag only makes sense, since no one would REALLY want to stash their gear anywhere BUT the center of the boat. Putting extra weight too far from center will greatly increase angular momentum, making the boat plow into waves and resulting in much more effort being needed to change the boat's heading, either for turning or just momentary pivots. Putting extra weight at the center changes the boat's angular momentum by much less (of course, most canoers already know this, even if more by "feel" than by understanding).
What you say about extra weight and handling the canoe is certainly true, though. Maybe ericnyre will post again on this subject, this time addressing boat-handling. I don't suppose he paddles Class-IV with loaded boats, but I don't really suppose the original poster "really" will be paddling Class-IV either, simply based on the nature of the original question. Finally, as has been pointed out by others, the "normal" procedure when loaded AND far from civilization would be to portage rapids that are Class-III or higher.
Cliff Jacobson?
Cliff Robertson is a lot more famous, but does he know anything about canoeing? ;)
Misfired again! Although a PT boat
might make a good wilderness cruiser on larger rivers.
my picks sofgirl619 …
… http://www.oldtowncanoe.com/canoes/expedition/appalachian.html
http://www.oldtowncanoe.com/canoes/expedition/tripper_172.html
Both those canoes are proven expedition class canoes .
amen NM
Old Town and the Amount of Rocker
I think it is very odd that Old Town provides no measurement of rocker in their specs. I understand that some people have devised some really peculiar ways of measuring rocker, so the measurements don't always agree from one builder to the next, but some indication of how much rocker is present would be helpful.
Looking at the photos of those two boats, it appears that the Appalachian has a fair amount of rocker (could easily be two or 2.5 inches, from the looks of it), and I suspect it maneuvers pretty well on account of that. The Tripper, on the other hand, has a shape that is "weird" at each end, strongly resembling the shape of a boat that's been hogged (damage that causes reverse rocker). I DON'T like the look of those stems that hang a lot deeper in the water than the adjacent parts of the hull. Having paddled boats with that shape (due to damage, not design), I'd expect the Tripper to be an unresponsive dog when sharp turns are attempted. It might be a good straight-line "tripper", but a river runner? I have serious doubts. To further discount it as a river runner, note that the seats cannot even be modified for kneeling (not even Wenonah, the company that loves the tractor seat and sit-and-switch paddling, would commit such a sin when building a semi-whitewater boat). Again on that score, the Appalachian wins in any comparison between these two boats. Maybe someone out there knows first-hand how the Tripper paddles, but it appears to be marketed toward the "Discovery" crowd.
Haven’t paddled either of those…
…but came across them in my shopping for used boats. The photo of the Tripper is a bit misleading for royalex anyway, I think (pictures lie - shutterbugs know this). Can’t remember who, but there are at least a couple here at p.net that have used one for poling and reported that it does well. Couldn’t be that bad - but for above cl.2? I dunno…
The Appy looks to me to be very much like a Prospector. If big flatwater tripping weren’t on the list, I think it would be a good choice for up to cl3.
Really does sound like a need for three boats. One Northwind(ish), one Prospecter(ish) and one whitewater solo.
here’s the beast ye be seeking…
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442324815&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302700641
the ultimate big water canoe for rivers. a category of one, the Evergreen Starburst, fully outfittted by Mike Yee. fill your boots.
Second Hand Old Town Tripper Experience
The Old Town Tripper was the whitewater playboat of choice, tandem or solo, back when Royalex was new and Grummans were common on the rivers.
I’ve seen them run nicely in technical class III (Farmington River Sandisfield, Ma), big wave class III (Dead River, West Forks, Me) and lower. I’ve heard tales of them doing well in class IV (Gilsum Gorge, Ashuelot River, Gilsum, NH no I didn’t see that one!).
As always it’s the boater as much or more than the boat but The Tripper is one that I’d consider for the OPs request… so long as there are no portages involved. I can tell you first hand those things weigh a TON!
If the OP is running moving water exclusively perhaps a Dagger Dimension would be worth consideration. That’s the biggest playboat I’ve seen.
Making photos lie about rocker…
…requires something more tricky than a straight-from-the-side shot (the shot which shows the feature I mentioned). Old Town even states that the stems have a “deep” V design, and the photo shows what “deep” actually means in this case. I don’t doubt that people have used them in whitewater, but I really think the OP wants a boat with rocker, rather than something with the opposite of rocker. Stems that dig deep are “grabby”.
Yeah, I wish MR would put the Dagger
Dimension back into production. They are slow cruisers, but they are dry and more maneuverable than my (erstwhile) Tripper or than the obsolescent MR Explorer.
guideboatguy, our Tripper was quick
turning both solo and tandem in whitewater. I watched Payson Kennedy and various partners place high in whitewater slalom in Trippers.
The Tripper does, admittedly, look like a camel, designed by a committee. But the center flattish section is a wonderful pivot, and the ends don't impede turning. The Tripper was also a favorite poling boat, except for its swing weight. A light composite Tripper would be a great boat to own.
Oh, and the seats are quite high, and I never had trouble kneeling under them with my size 15 feet.
Reading your post again, I wonder if the photos you are perusing show the actual shape of the hull. I haven't seen a Tripper at boat inspection where the ends droop below the center. Admittedly, Trippers used in WW often have foam pedestals stuffed between the center thwart and the bottom, which fractionally increases the rocker and improves the pivot section. But I doubt that a new, stock Tripper would hog in the center.
I checked that OT Tripper photo you’re
referring to, and that you see is an artifact of the camera angle. The camera was not as low as it should be to catch the true contour of the Tripper bottom. Instead, one side of the bilge obscures the true contour. The ends are not lower than the center, they are distinctly raised.
Rocker “numbers” are OK but one also has to take into account the shape of the ends (the Tripper’s ends don’t hinder turning much) and the shape and size of the boat center. The Tripper is 37" in beam, has a flattish shallow arch bottom of substantial size, soft chines, and so if not loaded very heavily, the center keeps the ends “soft” in the water and helps the boat turn.
I seldom see company photos that are taken from the right angle to show us what we want to see. Even canoe magazine reviewers usually provide bad-angle photos.
See my posts below.
A video I’d pay to watch/own…
2 "intermediate" paddlers,in a tandem canoe, loaded with expedition gear, and whatever floatation they can get into the canoe, after they load their gear.
Put em in at the top of Chattooga Section 3, and let em run it, and all of Chattooga Section 4.
Follow that up with Watauga Gorge top to bottom.
Then drive over to the Gauley & run "every" class 4.
Now that's an expedition.
Have 3 or 4 good cameramen; catching all the fun/capsizes/boat retrievals from different angles.
Sure it can be done.........
Show me!
Fun to watch, and educational too.
(Intermediate paddlers "NOT" experts).
I'd pay 35 bucks for a full length copy of that video.
Less than a hundred copies sold would probably pay for all expenses. After that it's all gravy; as long as you stay out of the hospital, or funeral home.
:^)
BOB
Tripper be very manuverabool
If yer look at dis dauggertype of de second canoo fro' de left on de bottom tier - dat be me Tripper.
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2124663870094647494HUrqSq
Ye will (kind'a) see de end profile of dis boat. Ah' been paddlin' dis here Tripper fer pert-near 31 years now an' fer a big expedition canoo it be highly manuverable. Empty ah' kin spin it on a dime an' loaded it still toyns very well.
FE