I agree that safety is being
compromised over the almighty dollar. Why not use tandems -you can squeeze 2 newbies into one kayak and they would likely paddle-they might not if they have to paddle a solo kayak…I’m being sarcastic here…
Now your’e talking about the…
The big box stores…
“Still, I think we should be careful not let the most unskilled and uninformed customers lower the bar simply because they are impatient and have cash.”
An advantage of the small shops is that they can pick and chose the best product for the $$$.
Unlike the BB stores that have to sell whatever corporate ships them.
Most new products are, incuding boats and paddles, are evaluated by the staff before any order is given. The customer is guilded to the right equipment for their stated purpose not forced into something they don’t want. If and when they are ready to upgrade they’ll return…
I just sold my first 11’ SOT… It broke my heart…
but at least it’s being used… now a few more to make some room, and then???
hmm… wonder when CD is shippin the Stratus…
I agree with g2d and TommyC1 
If you want to be mostly safe…
don’t leave your house…
don’t get near the water…
don’t get in a car…
We are all going to die, just a matter of when…
If we’re stupid it will happen a little earlier…
Not as scary, but more infuriating
I know an experienced kayaker who went on a commercial guided tour. Among the trip participants were a couple who had paddled before in their own tandem, but only on calm water. They’d never been out in any wind, period.
The couple paddled a tandem on the guided trip. Being Baja, the wind came up. The couple could not keep up with the singles even though the had the “advantage boat.” The trip guide made my friend (a strong paddler) take the husband’s place in the tandem.
While this was done for safety reasons, how would you like to pay big $$$$$ to go on a commercial trip and then have to paddle a divorce boat? Maybe the preplanned solution is to have 2 guides in a tandem for every pair of customers in a tandem. That way, the 2 tandems can each swap out when necessary–one guide, one weaker paddler per boat.
TANDEMS
– Last Updated: Mar-03-05 3:42 PM EST –
Four thoughts, all having to do with an Experienced kayaker teamed up with a Beginner:
1. Linda mentioned something that rang true with me. My youngest daughter prefers kayak surfing in a double, so that if something goes wrong, she can "blame the other person".
2. As a training aid, to allow a newbie to go out in conditions and come back alive, but still get some experience under their belts. The Tsunami Rangers do this a lot in their training programs.
3. For someone who doesn't really plan to make kayaking a major part of their life, but would like to try it.
4. Taking children out, especially if they are afraid to captain their own boat.
Tony
There’s a lot more to safety
than whether the clients are in tandems or doubles. Things like knowlegable guides who carry VHF, know the days weather forecast and pay attention to the clients (ever changing)condition are what I’d be concerned with.
When folks sign up for a “tour” they aren’t looking for instruction. They are looking for an experience.
The person who was asked to take over in the double would not be out of line asking for their money back IMO. Better that though than compromising the safety of the group by insisting that they stay in their solo.
Oh Yeah I also think this is a common issue for canoes and kayaks. That’s why I jumped in on a KAYAK thread.
“looking for an experience”
“When folks sign up for a “tour” they aren’t looking for instruction. They are looking for an experience.”
What bothers me is the willingness of outfitters to accomodate this mentality. Instruction should be part of the “experience”.
Tandems have their place
I disagree with much of what’s been mentioned here about tandems. I own both a single and a tandem. Many tandems are wide with closely spaced cockpits. There are doubles out there that range from 24-28" wide (vs. 30"+) and are plenty long to avoid paddle clashing. They haul a lot of gear and can be really great for distance touring. An expereinced team can easily navigate surf and, frankly, handle conditions that most single paddlers couldn’t manage as a easily. Obviously, highly expereinced single paddlers can manage conditions where a double might simply be too big to deal with. I have been amazed how many miles a good team of two can put in a tandem and sometimes with greater ease because of the stability factor. I agree that singles offer tons more manueverability and provide a better foundation to understand the relationsahip between boat design and paddle stroke. However, tandems have their place - yes, they are more of a niche, but I think it’s a fallacy to assume tandems are only for beginners or those who can’t paddle well. Just ask a few Brits who have travelled big seas in a Valley Aleut Sea II.
whoa!
Nobody said that tandems were bad. A good partnership in a tandem – kayak or canoe – is a joy to behold, or be a part of. The question is how and why you put people in them.
Tandems/Personal Discretion/Safety
I agree basic instruction should be mandatory. Wet exit and recovery, basic strokes, etc. The risks should be clearly outlined.
At some point people need to be given personal responsibility. You can instruct some people all you want, and it’s not going to stop them from going out and pulling a jack ass maneuver that gets them hurt. Eventually safety is up to the individual. Equip them with the basic skills to stay safe, put them out in safe conditions, but no amount of oversight by an outfitter can replace individual discretion.
That said, I think tandems are useful for novice tours, and I don’t think it’s a solely a monetary decision. I have been on day tours where solo boats were used, and on day tours where tandems were used. I would say the quality and depth of instruction was roughly analogous. But the tandem tour went smoother, because natural prowess was averaged out. There was less pulling ahead and lagging behind, which is to say the group was more cohesive. I think that’s very advantageous for the guide trying to keep a group of fledgling paddlers together.
A point well taken
I am a tad bit reactive to the stereotypes around tandems simply because they are so often associated with beginners or those lacking skills. My own experience has been so positive in doubles - especially for long coastal trips - that I struggle with the assumptions people make. A good team in a double can cover some serious ground in fairly rough water. I can personally attest to the fact that they are not good for rock gardens
Hey They aren’t all like us you know
For most people paddling isn’t an obssesion. It’s something you do once in a while on a very casual basis.
Nothing wrong with that. My old man used to take me canoing once a year. How was he to know it would turn into an addiction?
Yeah, but I’m not talking about…
…turning them into Derek Hutchinson, Verlen Kruger, or Greg Barton!
I’m talking about basics. Just enough that they are better equipped to have an even better time. Mostly basic water safety and a few paddling tips.
Surely there was some basic teaching involved in your early paddling experiences. Your old man didn’t just stick you and another kid with zero experience in a tandem and think that was sufficient did he?
Basic material could be covered very quickly by just asking them some questions. If they have good answers, away they go. Miss a few - just go over thise things. Some people “get it” and need little direction - some are clueless. A simple question checklist format could sort that out while getting things together with minimal disruption. Won’t bother those who know enough with stuff they don’t need to hear, won’t let those slip by who don’t.
"experienced team"
Key words in your post were “experienced team”. No dispute there, but quite clearly that is not who this thread is about.
Greyak stop trolling !
Your posts are both uninformitive and a diservice to beggining paddlers. Do you have any experiance working for an outfitter. Please post your paddling resume so folks can judge the prudence of your observations.I like doubles and find many situations where they are usefull. My children grew up in doubles. I’ve used them as safty boats on long trips with groups of friends so if someone was hurt I could paddle them out without towing them. Kathy and I use doubles on overnight trips because we like being in the same boat and they are esential in guideing not for making more money but for safty and giving cusomers an enjoyable experiance. Chris I’ve run an outfitter for more than a decade and worked at 3 others. I’ve lead trips for 3 decades
on oceans, great lakes, rivers, canyons and mountains and your comments are uttered out of the ignorance of a beginer. I only take issue because you pretend to be an expert constantly on this forum on issues that you have no experiance. sorry for the diatribe and spelling, Peace Joel
How is asking a question a disservice…
… to beginners?
I don’t need a resume/rating to ask questions and partake in discussions here Joel.
First, by “outfitters” - I mostly mean rental outfits. The question applies to guided AND unguided situations.
Rather than feeling I’m attacking your livelihood, perhaps you can use your experience to explain how using tandems makes beginners SAFER? I don’t really care about easier.
So far the argument for putting beginners in tandems seems to be that it gets them on the water faster, and out and back easier, with less need for teaching paddling/safety skills and self reliance.
You many see that as a good thing as it lets more try the sport with minimal hassle, and makes it easier for you to herd them (another minor safety point), but I see a potential problem with anything that makes it easier/faster for people to get on the water that have no clue what they’re doing and can’t be bothered to.
Let’s skip right to the point I’m really getting at: What happens if they dump? Even with a guide along you have two beginners in the water and a bigger boat to deal with. Without basic skills and ability to assist themselves - they are no better off - and quite possibly worse. If they’ve rented and are out alone (or with other beginners) the situation could get ugly quick. Am I wrong?
Sure, much of the issues are the same with singles. I just think someone renting a single, because they’re in their own boat, may be less likely to assume the same level of safety as those in a tandem - and are at least slightly less likely to get into bad situations through over confidence.
So let me restate the question like this: Can tandems foster over-confidence (through not being self-reliant, being more stable, etc.) that could let paddlers get into bad situations they might not in a single?
Again, just questions.
From what I see so far, beginners are put in tandems so they’ll feel more confident. I just don’t agree that’s such a wise thing to do. Confidence can be a dangerous thing on the water. Competence is a much better companion.
It comes down to best case/worst case scenarios. Tandems may allow beginners to avoid a worst case by being faster/more stable - but that’s a bit of a gamble. What’s better - hoping to avoid something, or being prepared for it? (Correct answer: BOTH!).
This is not a universal attack on tandems, it’s questioning the “easiest is best” thinking - purely from a safety standpoint. No big deal - not a right/wrong type thing. Just interested in the reasoning behind this common practice.
Sorry if it seems I’m stepping on outfitters toes. That’s not my intent. I’d like to assume most are highly skilled such as yourself and can take care of themselves and their customers just fine. However, it safer to assume nothing.
Related question: Have you had customers afraid to paddle a single but who would paddle a double? You’re OK with this and hook them up? You don’t need to bother answering. I think I already know the an$wer.
There are still outfitters that will not put anyone in a SINK with out doing wet exists and other basics first, but I have to wonder how many. Easier to just rent SOTs!
Cat Herding
While I’m not a big fan of tandems, I can see the wisdom of reducing the number of boats in the group. My experience with open water group paddling has been that keeping folks together is one of the hardest things to do. I consider this a safety issue with experienced paddlers and more so with novice paddlers.
So the sound reasons that I’ve heard for putting novices in tandems are strength and the ability to add strength to a boat by switching paddlers and making it easier to keep a group together by reducing the number of boats.
Hey so long as I don’t have to paddle one…
Here’s how
"How is asking a question a disservice…"
Your question seems to be just a disguise. You immediately answered your own question and start attacking other having different views. That how.
You may have a point that’s worth debating. But you were not debating, you were too busy preaching.
Here’s from one of your post:
“When folks sign up for a “tour” they aren’t looking for instruction. They are looking for an experience.”
What bothers me is the willingness of outfitters to accomodate this mentality. Instruction should be part of the “experience”.
“SHOULD BE”? Who are you to make that sweeping decision?
Making my point
You actually disagree with that? You think folks should just be dropped in big fat tandem with no instruction because they are impatient/uninterested in safety and just want to go play?!
Why not require some basic instruction before putting beginners on the water in small boats?
Substitute another word for “should” if that sounded too judgmental for you in the earlier post. I don’t really like that word either, but don’t care to play with semantics. The point remains the same.