Yep, THE point!
“You actually disagree with that?”
You got that right!
You asked (in an earlier post) if all of us learn something about paddling before we took our first trip on the river. Well, the answer is short: NO.
I took my first trip on the water in a canoe when I was probably a teenager. No one “taught” me about paddling. I just got handed a paddle!
I bet that’s how many of us “learn” to paddle that way!
I won’t argue that’s the BEST way to start. But I think that’s as fine a way to start as any. As the early stage of my paddling, I asked most of my club-mates how they got started in kayaking. Recalling their answers, I’d say half of them would never had started at all had they been REQUIRED to learn how to wet exit and paddle-float rescue BEFORE they set out!
Some here got a kick out of the “learning” part. But doing and enjoying is as important for others. I, for one, have a lot of fun perfecting my roll in the pool. But that never over-shadow the bigger enjoyment of being out on the water. I disagree with your assertion that ALL beginer must learn the basic of paddling and safety before going out at all. Just because you or a few others prefers one way, doens’t means it “should” be applied to ALL.
I disagree as well
Early in my love/hate relationship with kayaks I went with local outfitter on what was billed as the “Three Hour Tour”. It was in a protected bay behind a barrier island. The guide was knowlegable about the area, in contact with his shop via VHF, and spent a good portion of his energy keeping the group together. Pfds were required and worn. Many of the customers were in tandems including several parent child combinations. I asked for a “sporty solo” and they put me in an Eclipse (way better than the Pungo I had paddled before). No instruction was offered or expected but the guide answered my paddling questions as well as those of others. Best I could tell everyone had a good time. I believe it was as safe a paddling trip as any that I have been on.
I doubt even half of the customers got more into paddling than that. I can’t see any reason to deny them the experience.
The questions HAVE been answered…
If I'm not mistaken, we are talking about people who walk into an outfitter, and rent kayaks, either on a guided tour or an unguided tour. I work at FBO, and we do a few things:
Unguided Tours: We ask the people if they've ever paddled before. We check wind speeds, tidal currents, and water conditions, and based on experience levels of the participants we suggest a route. Yes, greyak, I have strongly discouraged some beginning paddlers from going out in 20 knot winds to Dusenberry creek which involves a mile and a half open water paddle. Luckily for us, we usually have a protected route regardless of wind direction. I also do not just toss the boat on the beach, say "Have a happy paddle!" and go on my merry way without giving them basic instructions as to rudder controls, paddle strokes, and talk them through a wet exit. I then orient them to location, and yes, turn them loose. Personal responsibility comes into play at some point, as pointed out in earlier posts.
Guided Tours: Again, wind speeds, tidal currents, water conditions are checked, the guide inquires as to paddling experience, and assists the customers in fitting the boats, be they tandems or singles. Once at the beach, a "paddle talk" is done covering how to hold the paddle, basic strokes, wet exits, group dynamics, and safety. The guide has the ultimate say so at all times. Once on the water, tips are constantly given on improving handling of the boat. And the guide should certainly know what to do if a situation is developing, and head it off, or deal with it as it comes up.
How much instruction do beginners need before getting on the water? Is this enough, or should they get a full 3 hour course? Coming in for a fun afternoon kayak tour, do they need a full class? So they sign up for a 3 hour tour, spend an hour and a half getting ready, shuttled and instructed, then on the water for an hour and a half when they thought it was almost 3 hours on the water. That would be great for business and for getting someone into the sport...............
"From what I see so far, beginners are put in tandems so they'll feel more confident. I just don't agree that's such a wise thing to do. Confidence can be a dangerous thing on the water. Competence is a much better companion "
Sure it is. But these people may not WANT to be competent. It's a new, fun thing to do on vacation. As was stated earlier, you can give all the instruction you want to some people short of a full blown class, and they will still be idiots.
Tandems vs. Singles: "So let me restate the question like this: Can tandems foster over-confidence (through not being self-reliant, being more stable, etc.) that could let paddlers get into bad situations they might not in a single?"
Tandems are inherently more stable. Yes, I have had people who would go out in a tandem vs. a single, and possibly it did foster a safer feeling for them. If so, fine. I am not sending them out blind, and not into conditions where they are likely to get into trouble in the first place. They will enjoy the trip more, and are more likely to come back to the sport. The tandems have large cockpits, and if flipped, people tend to just fall out, use nylon, not neoprene, skirts that come free at the first flailing, gravity and the life vest do the rest. Is it not better to have two people in the water in case one gets in trouble after they fall out of an easy exit tandem than a beginner in a tight cockpit single flipped over and alone? Matter of opinion.
"It comes down to best case/worst case scenarios. Tandems may allow beginners to avoid a worst case by being faster/more stable - but that's a bit of a gamble. What's better - hoping to avoid something, or being prepared for it? (Correct answer: BOTH!).
This is not a universal attack on tandems, it's questioning the "easiest is best" thinking - purely from a safety standpoint. No big deal - not a right/wrong type thing. Just interested in the reasoning behind this common practice."
The reasoning is they ARE more stable, less likely to get in trouble even factoring in the over confidence issue, if one person tires out, they can still move along, and are more likely to enjoy the ride and scenery, which is why they came out in the first place.
Let's face it--paddling can be, NOTE I SAID CAN BE, not "is", a dangerous sport, like any other outdoor activity. Should we require anyone who hikes on any trail in the backcountry over a couple hundred yards to have a complete orienteering course? Yet hikers get lost every year, and not all of them make it. Any idiot can rent a jet ski with no training. Surfboards are for rent all along the coast--no helmets are issued, are they? Is advice given to avoid crashing breakers on the shoreline or on shallow shoals? Outdoor sports carry inherent risks, and outfitters should try to head off the majority, but have to strike a balance.
How much is enough? I also believe some outfitters do have some altruistic motives in addition to making money--they love to paddle, and want others to experience the joy. Who is the regulator? How much is enough? Do we, as simple paddlers, have the right to deny customers the joy of paddling, or force them to take instruction? They all sign a waiver which lists the possibilities--granted few people read them, everyone is familiar with them, they are common knowledge.
And you can bet your ass if the water is screaming and a beginner comes in, I would deny him. I have refused to allow people to demo boats, for a SALE, because the water was too rough. Not a measly $50 tour.
Where does organizational responsibility end, and personal responsibility take over? Who makes that call?
If someone wishes to assume the risks after reading the libility waiver, which they are given the opportunity to do, and still want to risk the sport without instruction, who am I to deny them? If they want instruction, give it to them. If they don't, so be it. The world is full of stupid people, and of athletes, and smart people, and of excellent swimmers, and of non-swimmers, every concievable type. Who are we to judge? They get the basics. If they want more, they can request a class.
Finally, as an outfitter, we generally ask. Outline the advantages and disadvantages, and ask. It does happen sometimes due to a certain circumstance that the guide will just steer them to a double, but as a general rule, we ask the customer what they would like.
I hope this answers your question from a humble paddling outfitters perspective.
--Steve
I learned that way too.
Still am, but was not/am not paying anyone for what other beginners may assume is a completely benign experience. It usually is, but I never have that illusion. I also took some time to self educate enough to know what the risks were - what gear was sensible - what the water weather condidtions were, etc.
So yeah, usually pond type intros are no big deal - let them play. If it’s not a pond, they’re not staying close in, and or water’s cold…
Beginners are in tandems because…
they are safer.
Little story: We are in Baja on an UNGUIDED trip. No body makin’ any money. Okay? We take a tandem with 5 other singles just for safety, for load carrying, and because Joel likes to keep track of me when we paddle!
With 5 foot seas, in the middle of the trip, one of our party, (an experienced canoeist but not as confident as a kayaker) decides it’s way too rough in a solo boat. I take the solo, he gets in the double with Joel, and we make it around a headland I’ll never forget. Great ending, but it could have been disasterous without the double.
Bottom line: they are safer - for newbies, for experienced paddlers, for the injured - they are just a good idea on any long wilderness trip.
For the record, a couple of very experienced paddlers flipped our double in the surf (so doubles are not to be counted on as a substitute for knowledge) and the double was instrumental in the rescue we had to do also.
As a woman, it was hard to adjust to a double, (some guys I know said they wouldn’t be caught dead in one) but as a grownup I know they have their place.
They should never take the place of GOOD JUDGEMENT. By a guide, a renter, or anyone else.
About Money??? Think on this…
By the way, Greyak, people pay $50/head for tours, regardless of what type of boat they are in–it is per person, not per boat, so it is irrelevant from a monetary standpoint what type of boat they are in for guided tours–singles or tandems.
For non guided tours, it is per boat. Thus, wouldn’t it make sense for us to push singles, since we make more money on them, rather than tandems? Your argument that it is a money issue makes no sense. $35/ea for a single, total of $70 for two, or $45 for a tandem. Which do you think I would put people in if it were about the money??? Thus, that argument holds no water at all, period.