Why do canoes or pack boats not have skegs?

They are very common on touring kayaks but I don’t ever recall seeing one on a canoe or a pack boat.

The canoes I’ve paddled don’t need one, because they can be handled easily with a proper paddle stroke. The endless argument about paddle technique and edging vs skeg or rudder typically ends with someone saying purist snobs believe everyone should learn how to edge, when all I need is a skeg or rudder.

That works until bolts fall out of the rudder mechanism. What do you do with the rudder stuck in the up position. Even worse, how do you repair it on open water when the raising and lowering mechanism breaks and the loose rudder mount lets the rudder flop around.

The simpler the device the more reliable.

1 Like

it would make them even more expensive and heavier, so that too few people would buy them.
The Mad River Indepence solo canoe once was for sale wit a variable skeg, but that didn’t sell at all, AFAIK.

Personally I prefer sliding seats in canoes, which serve about the same purpose.
And then I would return the question why do kayaks rarely have sliding seats?
(The Broze brothers sold them long time ago with Mariner Kayaks)

There are canoe with rudders - Kruger Sea WInd is probably the best known, but there are others. I don’t know of a canoe with a skeg. There are canoes designed with a skegged stern - differential rocker with less rocker stern to make it easier to go straight with a single blade. I have one (Yellowstone Solo), but it is more about making it easy to go straight than paddling in the wind.

Sea kayaks are designed for open water and with a skeg (or rudder) are much better at dealing with wind (and waves). In a canoe you are going to get blown around . In some cases you can mitigate the effect by adjusting the canoe’s trim (keeping the heavy end up-wind by moving gear around or changing your paddling position), or by paddle strokes (in a beam wind I tend to paddle on the down-wind side).

To me, the issue with paddling in the wind is less about the wind itself than the waves that the wind will kick up. So in those conditions, in addition to getting blown by the wind you need to be quartering waves. Can be fun, or terrifying depending on the conditions and how far you are from shore. That’s why wilderness trippers build in lay-over days so they don’t need to be paddling in bad conditions.

1 Like

Differential or asymmetrical rocker does not only minimize yaw induced by the paddle mechanics of forward strokes, but can also reduce weather helm, which both can save a lot of paddling energy when traveling distances.

Calling the stern of these canoe designs skegged, is a hyperbole coined by Charlie Wilson. A real skegged stern (also called drag) looks like this:

2 Likes

I have a Wildfire (2.5" symmetrically rocker) and a Yellowstone Solo (2.5/“1.5”) asymmetrical rocker. I don’t find that they paddle that much different in calm or windy conditions, but maybe that is just me.

the asymmetrical rocker difference in these designs is very small to begin with, so if there is a difference, it will be marginal.

On the other hand I noticed you wrote:

in a beam wind I tend to paddle on the down-wind side

I take that it means you are affected by lee helm instead of weather helm?
This can happen when your canoe is trimmed too much stern heavy and/or you are paddling in serious waves.
Either way I would trim less stern heavy and even a bit bow heavy then, as I prefer weather helm over lee helm anytime.
Also it could make your canoe paddle a bit dryer.

lee helm instead of weather helm? Sailing terms?

I just mean when the wind is from the side (beam) I paddle on the downwind side, which tends to keep the boat from turning downwind. My solo boats are trimmed slightly stern heavy, so they tend to turn down wind. At least that is my recollection. It has actually been a while since I was out in a windy lake.

Weather helm and lee helm are canoeing terms too as it applies to all kind of vessels on the water.

If your canoe is turning downwind with a cross-wind, that is a wind “from the side (beam)”, that is called lee helm.

Because canoeists are better paddlers :smiling_imp:

I’m kidding of course for those that can’t see the sarcasm font. I thought I 'd spice things up, but this seems a lot like the skeg vs rudder debate with a twist. There’ll be a ton of interesting, esoteric information coming.

3 Likes

well at least they should be better paddlers :innocent:

Just remembered:
some British canoe manufacturer has invented the wheel:

1 Like

The easiest canoe to paddle in the wind is a tandem canoe paddled tandem. The hardest canoe to paddle in the wind IMO is a tandem canoe paddled solo backwards from the bow seat. Skeg or no skeg, the young lady in that video would get blown all over a big windy lake. It’s like having a sail sticking up in front.

Interesting terminology, it is nice to learn new things here.
I paddle a tandem canoe from the bow seat facing the stern with a drybag about half filled with water in the stern. My goal is to have the canoe about “level”. In the wind I always have to paddle on the side opposite the wind to go straight so I guess that I am affected by lee helm.
I am interested in your suggestion to trim bow heavy. Does that mean that I would have to paddle on the opposite side? How would make my canoe a paddle a bit dryer? I have been nervous about trimming bow heavy for this very reason.
Thanks in advance for the education on this topic.

Paddling a tandem canoe from the bow seat facing the stern, makes things more complicated, also because you lose a lot of the control that paddling in the middle of your boat gives you. For flatwater this does not have to be a problem at all, but in serious waves and/or whitewater I would not recommend it.

Trimming “level” is always the best to begin with and from there you can experiment with a bit bow or stern heavy for the best results – at that moment.
Weather helm and lee helm also depends on the speed of your boat, which also depends on the force of the wind:
the faster you go forward the less lee helm and more weather helm you will get and vice versa. (This is also the reason that forward sweeps to counteract weather helm are not particularly helpfull.)

I am interested in your suggestion to trim bow heavy.
Does that mean that I would have to paddle on the opposite side?

If you suffer from lee helm, trimming bow heavy will work against that and eventually you then may have to paddle on the opposite side (that is the windward side).
Either way it will give you some better control.

How would make my canoe a paddle a bit dryer?
I have been nervous about trimming bow heavy for this very reason.

Contrary what people assume, trimming level or even a bit bow heavy will make your canoe dryer in waves than when trimmed stern heavy.
A stern heavy canoe is only dryer in the first encountered wave. And usually there are more to come :wink:

1 Like

Trim is an interesting question, and people have some strong opinions. I have dedicated solo boats for flatwater and whitewater, and both are trimmed slightly stern heavy.

Erik

Heading down - Erik
It wasn’t a conscious decision on my part, that’s the way they were set up when I got the boats. Moving around to change the trim really isn’t an option without moving the seat or the pedestal, and I’m fine with the trim as it is. I’m also a little heavy for these boats so they sit a little lower in the water.

For normal paddling, having the boat slightly stern heavy frees the bow and weights the stern so it is easier to go straight. You can lean forward to engage the bow and release the stern for turns. Healing (edging, leaning, whatever term you use) will also release the stems when you turn. Some asymmetrical canoe designs build this feature into the boat (more bow rocker like my Yellowstone Solo or Outrage) so you can have a more neutral trim.

For river paddling, a slightly stern heavy trim makes it easier to paddle upstream, to surf or to do upstream ferries. I do mostly river paddling.

In wind, stern heavy is OK when paddling in a tailwind, but problematic in a headwind or even a beam (side) wind. The bow is going to tend to get blown downwind requiring lots of corrections. If you have gear in the boat that you can use to adjust the trim, that helps. Otherwise you just have to deal with it.

In waves you want the stems as light as possible to allow them to ride up and down the waves, so agree with kanoniem that neutral trim is best (not sure I would want it bow heavy). In my case I paddle mostly rivers, and I can usually manage by leaning back to lighten the bow when going through wave trains. Once again, some asymmetrical canoe designs build this feature into the boat with a fish-form design (widest section forward of the centerline like my Outrage) to increase buoyancy of the bow for rising over waves, so you can have a more neutral trim.

It is all theoretical until you get out and paddle to figure out what works for you with your boat.

Why bow heavy? I would think you’d want neutral trim if waves were your only concern.

The main problem is often false assumptions based on limited experience.
For instance the trim also changes with speed, and that varies with paddlers :wink:
so my optimal trim may not be yours.

It is just a matter of recognizing that not all works the same.

As an example:

Healing (edging, leaning, whatever term you use) will also release the stems when you turn.

Depends on the design and how much you heel.
In some designs a little heel may actually make the waterline a bit longer thus not turn easier.

In waves you want the stems as light as possible to allow them to ride up and down the waves, so agree with kanoniem that neutral trim is best (no sure I would want it bow heavy)

It also makes your boat more maneuvrable, which gives you better control in situations where it matters.

A little bit bow heavy may sometimes work better, but also depends on actual design, forward speed and such.
It is just a matter of experimenting to find that out in your own situation and not being afraid to do that because it is counterintuitive.

Why bow heavy? I would think you’d want neutral trim if waves were your only concern.

Yes, I would think so too also because I do not (yet) really know why that is so.
But the proof is in my experience and also some other paddlers that I know.
So the moral of the story is to experiment yourself to find that out.

1 Like

Interesting conversation.

Are we really not talking about canoes with or without a pronounced keel line? Doing a search I see that has talked a lot about here but not much in the last 10-15 years.

In my case canoeing as a kid 50+ years ago in aluminum boats that were tandems with a manufactured keel that was needed to join the two halves and me being a whole lot lighter made sitting backwards in the bow seat no noticeable problem.

A couple years ago during covid I decided to revisit canoeing and a lot had changed both to me and what is a tandem canoe. There was a big learning curve on going solo and I quickly learned the first time out on our local dam on a windy day what trim was all about. First off a tandem is expecting more load with a flat bottom than I could provide. It didn’t seem logical to paddle around a hundred pounds of ballast in order to trim the canoe and without a keel that flattish bottom would spin like a top with wind unless the trim was perfectly neutral. That moved me to location of the carry yoke and I did a redesign making it more like a solo pack boat. In that location the boat was too wide to paddle conventionally so I went to a double blade extra long paddle. Being both trimmed and able to paddle on alternate sides quickly made open water and wind something that was possible and IMO about the same as friends in rec-kayaks.

I have many times thought about a bow and stern skeg, but every time I’m paddling our sometimes shallow river I know they would be awful for catching along with making turning harder. I suspect something retractable would be a good solution except the additional weight of all that rigging.

After looking at @eckilson photos I remembered I have one of me resting slightly reclined as my seat back allows. In that position we are both about equally Bow light. When I sit upright to paddle I still get a little back support but I believe trim comes to level. Often in shallow fast moving water if I get hung up on rocks all I have to do is lean forward and the water pressure rushes under the flat bottom and propels me off the snag. With a keel line I don’t think that would work. That’s the advantage for me in a tandem as a solo it sits so high I can get thru where rec-kayaks get hung up. The disadvantage is without perfect trim open water and wind is tough.

1 Like

kanoniem, Thanks for the info.
I never paddle white water and try my best to avoid serious waves.
I will experiment with your suggestions for trim adjustments.