Probably a rhetorical question.
There are a plethora of short kayaks even at reputable outfitters.
I’m guessing that the market for 12’ + isnt there.
Can a 10’ boat ever perfrom as well as a longer one , regardless of design? By perform I mean speed and sea worthiness.
Shorter and lighter boats are easier to handle out of the water including transport. Price has to be a factor.
Most people buying recreational kayaks stay on flat water and don’t care too much about how fast or far they go. Some get motivated to go someplace in a kayak or start challenging themselves, and they’ll move on to a higher performance boat. But most seem content to just be on the water.
A lot of fishing kayaks have gone stubby as well, but trolling motors are becoming common.
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why have they gone stubby…
the simple answer, because they have.
Mostly because new kayakers, get into the sport and want a boat to go out and muck about but they don’t want to pay alot for it, and don’t want it to be too heavy and some want to be able to put it inside their SUV so they don’t have to buy Racks and whatnot.
This is why you see lots of Pelicans on the lakes.
so the manufacturers who’s main objective is to sell boats, make smaller shorter stubbier and lighter boats.
Wilderness didn’t sell many of the Tsunamis in the 165 and 175 length so they discontinued them which leaves the 12-14 ft boats in their touring class.
the Tempests sold better but not by much and they’re not optimized for larger paddlers like the Tsunamis are. and there is rumor that they may be discontinued or switched to an every other year production schedule simply because the demand isn’t there.
The Pungo line is their bread and butter. and they’ll keep the boats in that lineup.
finally onto part two of your question can a 10’ boat perform as well as a larger boat?
Maybe, it’s definitely not going to have the top speed as a larger boat would have nor the same glide but tracking ability can be just as good, for this I’d point out the aspire 105 (10’6") or the aspire 100 (10’) (Currently out of production. since it has a skeg it tracks as well as the 125 pungo.
so in some aspects they can can do just as well, and some not, but ultimately what drives the inventories is customer demand. Long touring boats are a niche market like it or not.
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So in the ww realm for both canoes and kayaks things have gotten shorter and more specialized. We now have play boats, river runners, and creekers actively marketed toward kayakers. Even rafts have gotten smaller with more offerings at or under 12 feet. Canoes are more fully bagged out, stronger and shorter than they used to be. The really short boat is a pakraft. You definitely have to be a pretzel to fit into a modern play boat.
Me not having a bad time in the wrong boat
Of course short boats have been around a long time, Check out Nessmuck’s ride sometime when you are in the Adirondacks (museum) or think about bull boats and their evolution into a pakraft. The need for speed and efficiency has its place but so do the short boats. I found myself on lakes for a few days in row in a short ww kayak last week so I dialed back the speed and distance. I still had a good time. When it comes to boats it’s all good. It is just that some boats work more efficiently in some environments than others. When things don’t align try changing your attitude and paddling style- for me it has never been about the boat but about being out in nature that I enjoy. Comfort and the boat-body connection trump length for me personally. Change your goals and life is good. Build wise short rec kayaks don’t take the abuse I dish out, lack some safety features I want, but I’ve been surprised how well some of them track. It also helps if you know how to make subtle corrections
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I can think of four reasons. Cost, portability, light weigh ease of transporting, and storage. Ifibdvthat most paddlers don’t have a sound enough paddling technique or the strength to make headway into wind over 20 mph. More than once, I’ve come across paddlers one mile out from the launch, whichnus where the wind rounds a point and stops them dead in the water. I watch them struggling for over 10 minutes as I overtake and pass them, which is typically when they turn around. The waves are not a factor at that point, just the wind, so a bigger bost would be of no value to them. I paced a guy for over 1/3 mile who was paddling a 120 Pungo. He sustsined 4.5 mph the whole time. Another time I stopped to talf with a guy in a 12 ft sit on top rec boat. He made remarkable tonecas we paddled together, but he wasn’t that far away and had to getbthe rental back before closing time. A stiff wind would have played havoc with his progress.
No need for fancy boats and light paddles if you just want to enjoy the water. I prefer new biats, but I haven’t had problems finding used models to fill my needs. They just need a few fixes. I paddle alone, and I have never seen boats past the two mile point. I was shocked to come across a kayak on thevothercsidebof the bay. I asked where he launched - the other side of the bay - the place I had paddled to.
It seems to me that it’s more of a lack perspective, principally by the manufacturers who are catering to the lowest common denominator. How about the joy of effortlessly slicing through the water in a narrow hull that has wicked secondary stability?
There are many older experienced paddlers like myself who are not content with settling for a short fat boat and ‘going with the flow’. We would love to have a narrow, light touring boat around 13 feet that would be easy to handle in and out of the water & a joy to paddle.
I’ve spoken with two of the major NA manufacturers (One American, the other Canadian) encouraging them to recognize this market. Furthermore, too many beginners buy these short fat boats, don’t take any lessons, and get into trouble when caught in a sudden wind/wave event. I’ve seen them. They make the news every summer. These same people with some basic lessons and practice would safely enjoy their boats more and even come to love a narrow exciting seaworthy hull. This is what I’d like to see the industry promote.
I’m never going to settle for a short fat unexciting hull. Life’s too short to deliberately remove any joy from it.
Come North and stop by the Store. Nothing here under 13’9". I’ll have to average out the 28 models in the Showroom. Probably averages out to 16’ and some change. I’m not sure how to factor the modulars in. One cockpit or two?
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The kayak you describe does exist: hand built skin on frames (SOFs). I have an 18’ one with 21" beam that weighs 31 pounds, tracks like it’s on rails, is sleek and fast and handles rough water like nobody’s business.
A shorter SOF with excellent performance characteristics is boat designer, Brian Schulz’s, F-1. Usually custom built to match the paddler’s metrics but used ones do show up sometimes.
Stellar makes a wide range of ultra light kayaks in various layups including the 14 ft by 23" beam S14LV which is available in weights from 30 to 34 pounds.
There are also very light folding SOF’s. like the 31 pound, 14’ 11" by 24" beam Pakboat Quest 150 (I have the smaller 135, no longer made). Ultimate portability – can check it in a rolling sports gear bag as airline baggage.
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I’ll dispute that “shorter yaks…are easier to strap on today’s small cars.” The wider beam of chunky rec boats makes them harder to put on racks unless you opt for the longer cross bars that result in frequently bruising your forehead or getting poked in the eye when you are navigating around your vehicle. And it’s harder for a short person to leverage a short fat boat onto even a short car. At 5’ 5" I find it MUCH easier to solo load my 14’ to 19’ touring kayaks than when I have to load other people’s (or rented) fat shorties. Just lift the bow onto the rear rack from behind, then walk back and lift and slide the stern. Can’t do that very easily with an 8’ boat.
I’ll also argue that short boats encourage people to just throw them, unsecured, into the back of pickup trucks or hanging out of hatchbacks with nothing but a bungee cord. I witnessed one of the latter flying out and cartwheeling into a ditch when the vehicle hit a bump, fortunately they were only driving about 25 mph on the access road to the launch area.
You don’t have to spend $4000 to get a light weight touring kayak. An 11’ by 30" Perception Swifty plastic rec boat costs around $500 but weighs 47 pounds. My 15’ by 22" Venture Easky 15LV only weighs 44 pounds and I bought it new on sale for $730 – it’s a blast to paddle even in rough coastal conditions, fast and tracks well.
My biggest issue with the mass proliferation of short fat plastic boats (as is frequently discussed here) is that too many people buy them at places where they get zero informed salesperson information on what added items they need to paddle them safely and comfortably, like a properly sized paddle (so they dont’ get fatigued or hurt themselves), a PFD that is comfortable enough that they will actually wear it, and, in the case of sit insides with big open cockpits, flotation bags to fill in the bow and stern cavities to prevent sinking when swamped or capsized. Also “big box byers” not learning the cautions on what types of waters they are appropriate and safe for. We have had many deaths in my general area from people who threw $300 rec boats in class 4 and 5 rivers or took them out in the coastal Great Lakes, only to turn up drowned and dead.
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I have the S14S . The cockpit with the foot controls is too short for me.
It is very rudder dependent and I’ve removed the foot controls. I’m trying out a temporary skeg that works pretty well .
I’m decent at controlling direction with my paddle.
I can’t worry about the boats other paddlers pick. I took a chance in a cheap boat, likes it, and kept upgrading. While I get a thrill out of a stiff wind and moderste waves, a person in the rec boat (what is the thread running concurrently - Type 2 Fun) can experience level 3 in a mild chop. When someone survives, continues and upgrades after an exillerating experience, I doubt that their level of risk goes down. Maybe they’d be safer sticking to rec boats
Rip Van Winkle here … when did all these little pool toys invade the inland lakes?
I moved this winter from coastal California to the farm that has belonged to my wife’s family for over 100 years in Utah near the Idaho border. There is a large beautiful lake about an hours drive from here, it’s 21 miles long 7 miles wide, sparkling blue water and at 6000 Ft elevation. For the last couple of months I have tried to get out one morning a week for several hours for a long SUP paddle to try and maintain some ocean paddling ability. I leave when it is dark and I am off the water by the time the winds and beach goers and motor boats get out. For the first several weeks I only saw maybe 10 kayaks (water was cold until late June). On my last paddle when I got back to the beach at the state park I was surprised to see ~ 150 kayaks, almost all of them stubby fat plastic boats from China that you can buy at the local Walmart or grocery store. Lot’s of kids, not a lot of PFDs and the rangers don’t check. Very few looking like they have ever looked into how to use a kayak paddle, and none of them venturing more than 100 yards from their lounge chairs and shade tents. I’m guessing the boats work well for what the people want. I’m looking forward to Fall early winter when I can paddle in solitude in my old seakayak.
My friend and I both paddle Pungo 140s; he because I reccomended it. They both travel in my pickup ,aided by a rack extender.
I taught him to paddle and he’s faster than I am.
P.com and Brent Reitz , via CD, taught me.
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Still not getting why you say short fat boats are “easier” to rack than sea kayaks. Same number of attachments (two straps around the hull and bow and stern lines) right?. My sea kayaks weigh about the same as, or less than, most rec boats and I always find wide short boats a royal pain to lift onto a rack because of the lack of leverage and just getting them up to the level to pivot smoothly onto the bars. And I have found many rec boats have nothing substantial to which to attach the bow and stern lines.
I suspect it’s like anything else, once you get a system and get used to it, loading any reasonable weight boat is not a big deal.
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One positive (maybe) - Most folks will use their big box beach buckets a couple of times and move on to other activities, but a few will maintain an interest in paddling. They’ll soon figure out that there’s more enjoyment to be experienced with better boat, a good paddle, and practice, and these are the people who will keep the sport alive for the next generation.
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Another factor is that there are plenty of used longer boats out there that you can buy. And there are people like me who keep a boat for decades if they really like it, and don’t go out looking for the latest and greatest. Both reduce demand for new boats.
I sold 3 of my fleet in recent years, two of them practically overnight - Old Town Penobscot 16 in Royalex and a Bell Yellowstone solo in Royalex. Both were easy to sell because Royalex isn’t made anymore, and I keep my boats in good shape. And I also sold a Betsie Bay Recluse, which took 6 years to sell, but I did find someone who wanted that exact boat and didn’t want to pay for new.
Replaced all 3 with a Northstar Magic, which I will never sell.
I have another I’ll probably sell (Valley Anas Acuta), and replace it with a used boat that is more in line with my aging joints, and with my interests. There’s nothing out there new that interests me, especially the price. Wouldn’t take long to find a used replacement that I’d like.
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Price, Ease of Transport and Lack of Skill.
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Why does it matter?
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I get your point now. Appreciate the clarification.
Every inch shorter reduces their warehousing and transportation costs and footprint in stores, making them cheaper.
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