I have an Anas Acuta that has a rear bulkhead behind the seat that is slanted backward, which makes emptying the boat easier, because no water gets trapped between the seat and bulkhead. We have a couple of other kayaks (NDK Explorer and Nigel Foster Silhouette) that have that as well. Very smart design, IMO.
Deep water by itself has no impact whatsoever in a sea kayak self rescue. That happens on the surface and l explained along with others above that water in the cockpit is not a big issue.
Nor is dimensional water an issue if it is long ocean rollers. It is steep peaking waves that complicate out of the boat self rescues.
Assuming you don’t succeed at rolling. I should add that l do not think anyone should be paddling solo offshore without at least the possibility of a roll.
I also practice a cowboy when l start paddling because it is a good option in a Romany. And carry a paddle float.
In the conditions under which l paddle solo, yes and others above said a self bailing anything is not needed. A normal set of options and a hand pump on the back deck to clear out a bit of water is fine.
If it is too messy for all of the self rescues options to work, l am not out there solo.
And sculling is under regarded. It is another way up.
Going back to original comment. You need to learn something about sea kayaks before coming out with pronouncements about them. For ex I can easily paddle with some water under my seat without it being destabilizing and often do because I prefer a skirt that will not fight back in a wet exit. Over an hour and a half in sloppy stuff some water gets in. My seat is at its forward lip, the highest, half inch off the bottom of the boat. I have no idea where you come up with the idea that a huge amount of water can be under the seat in a sea kayak.
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Not sure which way your bulkhead slants.
Which way does your bulkhead slope, forward towards the cockpit coaming with bottom edge aft?.. or forward bottom edge with top aft to the coaming aft?
Bottom edge more forward towards the bow than the top. It may be more raked on the NDK boats but I think all of my composite kayaks do that.
Overstreet– I no longer paddle a sea kayak. If I’m missing something–by all means, explain it to me.
Celia–
What exactly do you think this post is about? I’m actually trying to learn about sea kayaks–
Are you intending to sound condescending?
To clarify for you–in a previous post someone mentioned that
So this is what I was referring to–a sea kayak will carry more water in the cockpit than a surfski–do you see how that would work?
Raisins
They are closable or low-profile so it shouldn’t be a problem.
The ones I installed and I think the ones in Waynes boats retract. …and of course don’t like sand between the parts.
Narrative below from video
Practicing an assisted rescue in rough water with large waves and fast current. This is a standard sea kayak “T Rescue” performed in real conditions.
Due to the size of the waves, the kayak was not completely emptied before re-entry. Instead it was pumped out enough to get to an area of slightly smaller waves where it was pumped out more than paddled out of the rough area completely before final emptying of the kayak.
Surf ski bailers vary in what minimum speed the water will be sucked out. The one in my ski seems to work best above 4.3 mph. Below that, there is a narrow speed range in which the sucking occurs in pulses, probably when the bite is strongest. Below that, it does not remove water and will let it in.
I don’t think a sea kayak needs a bailer. The skirt does a good job keeping water out. The cockpit does not have to be completely emptied after a wet exit, only enough to be stable for paddling. And if you are used to paddling a surf ski, the tippiness of a sea kayak cockpit with some water in it isn’t going to be horrendous.
You are the one who has started out posting that a bailer would make a crucial safety difference. Multiple people, not just me, have commented that between the use of skirts and how a sea kayak is designed that you are not getting the bit about water in the cockpit correct. Yet two comments above you are off and running on that, again.
And I should note that grayhawk has decades into sea kayaking, has known more than many here have forgotten. I personally think he knows how that works.
You have an easy option, as things open up go spend some time with folks who are solid sea kayakers and spend some time learning proper skills in a sea kayak. Or stay with the surf ski. Either is fine, both get you on the water and that is what matters. Your question has been answered even if you don’t like the answer.
We just get the feeling you aren’t listening. We keep providing reasons and you keep telling us we are wrong. So just go do it.
We empty the water before going on. Skillful sea kayakers either roll, or do a bow lift to empty water and scramble back in cowboy or side entry assisted or not. As a HV paddler my cockpit has a lot of volume. It is stable with a cockpit full of water… until I get in. Paddling fast enough long enough to empty the water would take more effort than what we normally do emptying the cockpit. And the boat doesn’t float high enough to keep waves from reentering the cockpit as I wallow it forward. Lightweight paddlers would have better luck. But I’m not against the concept. I seem to capsize in the surf near the beach or in dead calm water waiting for people with the skirt open. So the need isn’t real pressing. Both situations are once a year frequencies after many miles of paddling.
If you think it is necessary put one in and go for it. Prove it works. It might be easier to go paddle a rented or borrowed kayak and try paddling with the cockpit full of water.
In any event thanks for hanging in the discussion. Now remember to tell us what you end up doing.
I don’t think you are reading my statement accurately.
I’m asking because “it seems” like it would be an advantage.
I have a good deal of experience with bailers–less experience (but some) with sea kayaks. So I’m asking a group with more experience–what’s the problem?
If I stated as fact that a bailer would make a safety difference rather than could, please point it out.
What I have seen is some inaccurate statements on bailers and surfskis–this I do know about–so I’ve addressed those.
Overstreet–it’s not that I’m not listening, maybe it’s not that I’m understanding. Knowing the benefits of a bailer and being curious about why they are not included on sea kayaks seems like a reasonable question for this forum.
I’m hearing that wearing a spray skirt and having a solid roll cancels out the effectiveness of a bailer.
The reason I may not be understanding this as a solution is:
- Not everyone always hits their rolls–especially under adverse conditions, which is where you need the most reliable safety net. So if you didn’t hit your roll and you had to reenter in turbulent seas like the video posted–wouldn’t a bailer be a better option?
- In spite of the spray skirt–most of the sea kayakers I paddle with carry external bailing gear–so despite the effectiveness, there is a need for this gear from what I can tell–wouldn’t it be an advantage therefore to not have to rely on this gear?
I haven’t really seen an answer to these questions–and that’s what I was primarily trying to get an answer on.
This is not a challenge–just trying to understand.
@Mountainpaddler
People have indicated above that you can put in a pump. If it makes a difference to you then it is an option.
I suggest you ask the people you paddle with who have sea kayaks. It does not appear you have had this conversation with them in person. It would work out better than this thread is.
My life rule #16
Never put a hole in the roof of a car or the bottom of boat that you don’t
absolutely have to…
Here is what I glean from this discussion:
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The self bailer is a good solution for surf skis etc., but not so for sea kayaks. Why?
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When paddling normally with a skirt, there is no water in the boat. If conditions are rough, some kayaks may allow some cockpit water, but certainly not enough to hinder boat handling.
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If you capsize without a roll, significant water will enter the cockpit upon wet exit. In the worst case scenario the swimmer gets back in the kayak with significant water in the cockpit (e.g. no ndk style drainage via raising the bow). A kayak with paddler plus significant water in the cockpit does not handle well, is more easily capsized again, and is slower than normal.
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The self bailer needs some kayak speed to operate well and will be less efficient (maybe inoperable?) for a slow kayak and will take quite some time to empty the cockpit while the paddler remains in jeopardy.
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The paddler needs that water out quickly. The manual pump does a good job of removing the water quickly. A decent solution. An automatic (e.g. battery powered) pump is swift and because it’s hands-free, the paddler can brace as needed, paddle to a safer spot - all while the water is emptied from the cockpit. An even better solution (but less fool proof).
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Yes. And back to one of my early points, what the heck is a solo paddler doing out there in conditions that have a high likelihood of capsize. Unless Ma Nature threw them a curve ball or they failed the weather, local knowledge and judgement part of paddling.
great summary,
I would consider a self bailer in a sea kayak if it could be made efficient enough.
ie, not necessarily as fast as manually pumping but faster than current surf ski bailers (at least the ones I’ve seen).
The advantage of battery powered pumps is that you can paddle while in conditions, as would be an advantage to an efficient self bailer.
(I still rely on manual pump, more likely something can go wrong with a battery pump than manual, that’s also why I preferred the ‘rope skeg’ in the Romany to the Kari-Tek Wire skeg - something I can fix while on a long trip)
Another _ _ _ _ battery to keep charged. Isn’t it enough with the phone, GPS , radio and locator beacon!?
Easier to just take the power boat.
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I can attest to this one–the older Venturi bailers do need some speed to get them draining, but the new close-able bailers will start to empty with very little speed. Also, more water in the cockpit means more pressure is available, and it then becomes even easier to drain.
So this one is pretty easy to solve. I think where it would be more difficult would be on very heavy, slow and cumbersome kayaks.
Some of the sea kayak designs are very similar to surfski hulls with a closed cockpit.
Model, manufacturer, etc required. (The bailer not the boat). I’ll just try it. But it’s real low on priorities.
The bottom of a standard sit inside sea kayak cockpit is a couple inches or more below the waterline. A venturi type bailer would not work unless the kayaker could maintain a pretty high rate of speed, which is unlikely with a swamped boat. It is the forward motion that enables the venturi effect. Also when the kayak is moving slowly or stopped, water would flood into the cockpit through the venturi until it reached the level of the outside waterline. The kayak would continue to settle with the weight of the incoming water until it was balanced by the fore and aft flotation Water is relatively heavy, and even with a bailer that is one way, the venturi effect would have to overcome the pressure from the difference of the inside and outside water levels. At the speeds a sea kayak travels it is extremely unlikely for the venturi to develop enough suction to overcome this. I have never seen a self bailer that was designed for a situation where it opened automatically on a boat where the bottom was below the waterline. In these cases it is opened manually only when the boat had achieved a critical speed. The risk of a failed one way valve is too great. The bottom of a surf ski cockpit and most SOTs is generally slightly above or at the outside waterline. Dealing with a manually opened venturi with a spray skirt in rough water is not something that I would want to deal with.
On top of everything else, add on balers are subject to damage when launching and landing. Also surf skis and SOTs have enough space between the bottom of the cockpit and the bottom of the boat to house the venturi itself without extending above the inside of the cockpit or below the bottom of the boat. A sea kayak does not.
Battery powered pumps are fine when they work. Salt water is death to electrical components and the battery and pump must be well sealed. Plus there is the possibility of a weak or dead battery. If I had an electric pump I would also carry a manual pump.
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