Stevens has it.
I am having a difficult time figuring what a “cumbersome” sea kayak would be. I certainly don’t know anyone who would buy such on purpose.
Let’s just say it. You do not accept the possibility of a kayak without a bailing device no matter what anyone says, or how deep their experience in sea kayaking is.
Overstreet–Have a look at the Debrito, Anderson and Epic bailers.
Rstevens–
So ultimately it comes down to lack of speed? Is that what you believe makes it unworkable for a sea kayak?
Celia–
So nice of you to bring back the toxicity.
Here is what I mean by a “cumbersome heavy kayak”:
Maybe a 12-14 foot plastic, wide beamed 1 or 2 bulkhead boat.
I then stated that many sea kayaks have very similar hulls to surfskis–just to point out that there are very fast sea kayaks as well.
You keep trying to start an issue here. Are you somehow offended by an idea that doesn’t align with your own? This is a forum for questions among other paddlers–take it easy.
Why don’t you take a break from starting trouble where there isn’t any and maybe head out for a paddle.
If you don’t like the thread, there are several others you can go insert your opinion and lack of facts and hyperbole on.
sheesh
You’re accusing them of trying to start an issue? That’s rich, if not downright hypocritical. Highly experienced sea kayakers here have given you plenty of reasons that there is no need for bailers in sea kayaks and/or why they wouldn’t put one in their boats. If you think you know better, go ahead and put a hole in your boat and leave everyone else alone.
The purpose of a bailer is to remove the small amounts of water that accumulate in a surf ski due to it’s open cockpit, not to empty a flooded sea kayak. A bailer wouldn’t last more than a few minutes in typical rock garden play. Sea kayaks are not constantly in motion (like someone racing a surf ski) and a bailer would just be a leak point a low speed or at rest. There’s no way in hell that a bailer would drain a swamped sea kayak cockpit quickly and your “pressure” idea is all wet (pun intended), since you don’t get any pressure when the water in the cockpit is at the waterline or below (sea kayaks don’t fill to the coaming after a capsize, more typically the cockpit will be around half full). Addtionally, a tight-fitting spray skirt used with a dry top or dry suit could potentially create negative pressure as a bailer tries to drain the cockpit, reducing its efficiency and further extending the time required.
You can harp all you want about bailers, but if there was any advantage to them in sea kayaks, they would have been incorporated decades ago. Nobody does it because there’s no good reason to, whether you want to believe that or not. If that’s not good enough, by all means, go ahead and try to prove everyone wrong.
I don’t see what upset you with my post. A typical sea kayak normally travels at 3-5 mph. That is not enough to overcome the pressure differential for a venturi that is below the waterline in a typical sea kayak. With SOTs and surf skis the bottom of where they sit is at or above the exterior waterline. I am talking about basic hydrodynamics. Science and physics. A swamped sea kayak will contain a huge amount of water in the cockpit. With a spray skirt, which is an essential component of a sea kayak, not an optional accessory, it should contain almost none. Venturi systems that are below the exterior waterline are generally confined to sail and powerboats that can attain the necessary minimal speed to make them work.
I have made a single post on this subject based on the subject of venturi drains. Nowhere in my post did I mention a “cumbersome heavy kayak.” I think that you have confused me with another person’s comments.
Any sit-in kayak, whether a short wide rec boat or my 21 year old 18’ Necky Arluk 1.9 is not a suitable kayak for a venturi drain system if the bottom of the cockpit is below the exterior waterline…
Talk about toxic posts.
It’s worth pointing out that a boat loaded for tripping is much more difficult to right without getting a lot of water in the cockpit. Even with a partner, it usually isn’t worth the risk trying.
Empty boat, no problem.
Yes. For a venturi drain system to work, especially if it is below the exterior waterline you need a critical minimum speed to overcome the pressure differential between the internal and external waterline. That is also why they are usually confined to sail and powerboats. They are often manually opened because a failure of the backflow preventer would be catastrophic. This could be caused by a foreign object being partially sucked into them.
Surf skis and SOTs that use them generally have the intake at or above the external waterline and backflow is not a critical issue… If there is no increased pressure between the internal and external water pressure, then a much lower speed is required to make a venturi drain system to work, well withing that capability of a SOT or surf ski. If the intake is above the external waterline, then it will drain naturally, but more slowly without the venturi effect.
I see this forum is as contentious as ever… The question of adding a bailer to a sea kayak is a legitimate one, especially if you have reaped the benefits of racing with one on a surf ski.
Bailers HAVE been used in sea kayaks and there was some mention of them in a Sea Kayaker article years ago, but I don’t recall which issue. Anderson bailers have been used in sea kayaks, they usually require you to open it by popping the skirt and pressing the bailer down, but if well placed you can close by reaching under the hull to push it closed.
These would be advantageous in racing situations (like for a surf ski) for removing SMALL amounts of water in the cockpit that add weight and slow you down, making you less competitive. Often on the Everglades Challenge my 18X kayak slowly accumulates water over time and a bailer would be a godsend – not to empty a flooded cockpit but to remove some water sloshing around, to save time on stopping, getting out the pump, pumping, stowing the pump and then getting underway.
For surfski racing the accepted wisdom is that an inch in the bilge is slowing you down and you should bail. Opening the bailer adds drag so bailing too often is not good either.
For non-racing situations a self-bailer in a sea kayak probably wouldn’t be too useful, IMO. As has been pointed out you need speed – about 4.8 mph on my V12 surfski for an Anderson bailer to work. A sea kayak and competent paddler can certainly reach that speed, but probably not with a fully flooded cockpit.
A tight fitting skirt lets in very little water, but if it’s really hot and you are racing you will roast in a neoprene or aquatherm skirt. A lot of kayaks in hot weather and flat conditions are raced with no skirt or a leaky nylon zippered skirt that allows ventilation but some water entry. A bailer would be advantageous in this case. However as others have said, cutting holes in the bottom of your boat also comes at a risk and bailers have been known to jamb, break, fail. I wouldn’t want one for an expedition, rock gardens, etc, but would definitely want one for a race in moderate conditions. It all depends on what kind of kayaking you do.
Greg Stamer
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I did some research on self bailers in standard sea kayaks. Some manufacturers experimented with them primarily in the 60s. They gave up on them for several reasons. They required a fair amount of speed to work and would allow water in if the speed dropped too much… Back then they tended to leak even when closed. When deployed they added a significant amount of drag. If deployed when making a beach landing or hitting an underwater obstacle they could cause catastrophic hull damage.
As gstamer pointed out they are useful with some boats for racing. For normal kayaking, not so much.
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When considering baling systems for non-racing sea kayaking in rough conditions I believe it very useful that the paddler has had just one really frightening experience in a sea kayak. When your “bomb-proof” roll fails in rough water (e.g thigh brace failure), and you’re either solo (you’ve been left behind), or your buddies are equally frightened and can’t look after you, or (as happened once to me) everyone in the group capsized on the same breaking wave, and you can’ t see beyond the next swell, then you can be scared, very scared.The reality of using a manual pump in rough conditions becomes apparent.
The solution I’ve used for the past 10 years is an electric pump ,powered by a lightweight lithium battery. Combined with a well-practised re-entry and roll, this is very effective. I’ve never had a failure of a pump through water ingress. Good design and quality materials ensure this.The battery is secured in the day compartment, and the pump sits behind the seat. I probably charge the battery once a year. We have the technology for space travel and for submarines, so a reliable pump in a sea kayak is not cutting edge.
When I did my BCU 4* Leader training the last incident of the course, after two exhausting days, was for the whole group to be capsized in choppy sea conditions, one mile off-shore, and we were then told to paddle back to the shore. I quickly got back to the beach after a re-entry and roll and emptying the cockpit with 60 seconds of electric pump usage, while the rest of the group, all less than half my age , struggled back with flooded cockpits.
Electric pumps can be life-savers.There is an account in the book “Sea Kayakers, Deep Trouble” of a man who died when he was left behind in rough conditions. His spray deck leaked very slightly around the perimeter, and the hull began to fill. He didn’t try manual pumping, presumably because it was so rough.He died, alone.
Nick.
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Look all, l apologize for personal contribution to toxicity here.
That said, there has been a solid path thru all of this that only just arrived. And not from the original poster.
A sea kayak is by most definitions a boat that always has at least 2 bulkheads. One bulkhead and it is not a proper sea kayak. So those transition boats are not in play. It is only the OPer that suggested anywhere in this thread they were part of the discussion.
If l was someone who did major camping/distance/expedition paddling l would have a foot operated battery pump with the extra hole in the deck. Above comments about dealing with a fully loaded boat are right. A lot changes from its unladen state.
It is the only fully mechanized solution that would work because there is no way l can assure paddling that boat more than about 3 miles an hour. Even in better shape than l am now.
My paddling is purely recreational at this point and l am extraordinarily cautious about weather, conditions etc. Like many here who have gotten older. The original post envisions conditions that l would not risk being in without someone else able to be useful in a rescue.
For ex l don’t know that l will ever paddle to Eastern Egg again. With Jim we would still only do that with one or two other paddlers, because of the open stretch of 2 point something miles where you could get caught out even with good planning. We bailed on that trip almost as many times as a go when we got out by Franklin and saw a possible change in weather from the prediction earlier.
There are a lot of considerations that go into a decision to paddle, and pragmatic details like how fast most people paddle, that got completely run over by the obsession about bailing devices. People who sea kayak responsibly make a lot of judgments about safety before the boat is even off the rack.
It was annoying to have all of that ignored, and not just from me. Many here have spent a couple of decades plus of gaining that judgement. And yes l reacted as annoyed.
Nope–I accused Celia of trying to start an issue–no one else.
I have a decade of experience with bailers–some of the answers I received didn’t seem to line up with my experience–I didn’t call anyone out–I just added my experience. I don’t see how adding my experience with bailers could be offensive–and I still don’t so you’re saying I should disregard my experience fr someone else’s?
And as I said earlier–all my boats already have bailers–I’m not here to figure how to add one–just curious why they haven’t already been added.
now you will give me your expert opinion–
Bailers close–they do not drain into the kayak when you sit still and as far as rock gardens–not all kayaks were made for rock gardens. I wasn’t suggesting that all boats should have bailers
I wasn’t upset at all–I literally asked you for clarification. I thought your answer was pretty insightful and I was trying to determine your central theme.
Gstamer–you kick ass! Spot on with everything you said. Thank you for adding your experience and perspective. Makes sense
Amen!! That’s what I’m talking about
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@nickcrowhurst ck - re your experience w BCU. Those scenarios are intended to slap your arse. I would mention that with the judgement you should have from training, the all-capsize situation should be avoidable for any group you lead.
But on the bailer thing - West Marine has carried a portable battery powered pump that we first learned about from a BCU RCO. He carried it in his day hatch for training situations that went south. In a regular person’s boat, not my shrimp jobs, it could probably be mounted inside the boat. Stick the tube under the skirt and you are on your way. I think it automatically stopped when there was no more water but it has been a while.
Actually on that training exercise, in my previous time with the BCU I could name coaches that would likely have dinged you for NOT paddling back a flooded boat. Expecting that to be a required skill. Apparently your coach did not feel that way. In fact this foolishness was why I gave up on the BCU when they added to the inconsistency with the canoe/single blade stuff. Which they have apparently since dropped but I was gone by then.
I just checked and West Marine still carries it, though reviews indicate the newer ones don’t last as long. Then again I hope no one needs it more than once a season or even that. https://www.westmarine.com/buy/attwood--water-buster-battery-powered-pump--447235?cm_mmc=PS--Google--GSC%3EBrand-_-447235&product_id=447235&creative=343879478296&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CjwKCAjw88v3BRBFEiwApwLevS5RA3FpFl6FMoZF_s2C33SQ9aqBXiJ7c7PLQxhY0AzTOxRU22O6dBoCZUgQAvD_BwE
smiley face on
don’t know what he was paddling, but if it was a Shrike-R, it’s already almost sinking - it needs all the air volume it can get
smiley face off
(sorry, don’t do emojis)
It’s been a long time ago but my ACA IDC course had an all capsize on the last day in bumpy water. This was our last exercise.
It is a normal exercise. Occurs in two incarnations in most training programs.
One is the all-on where the order is for one person to get back in then direct helping the rest. Like if you were leading a tour group. It is a little bit false because of course then participants can generally re-enter with more talent than complete newbies. And usually happens in moderate conditions.
The other is in the leader 4 training like Nick had, where it becomes a survival scramble. fIf you can help someone that is extra points, but the primary goal is to get in.
Smiley face again
Or a custom built greenland boat. My friend has one that fits her perfectly, her name for it is the The Submarine.
Smiley face off.
My electric pumps are activated by a duplicate skeg slider button on the opposite side of the outside of the hull to the skeg slider. Activation is by a sliding magnet and a magnetic reed switch embedded in epoxy resin. I also always carry a manual pump in a knee tube. When paddling with others who may not be so equipped I carry, in the day compartment, a Waterbuster portable battery powered pump (as mentioned by Celia) to bail out a flooded cockpit. It has proved invaluable when speed is essential. For example, a towed rescue from a rock garden in surf, with the paddler hanging on to the stern of his kayak after spinning it upright. Then pull the kayak alongside and get the paddler heel-hooking in, then a very short towline from your foredeck while the Waterbuster does its stuff and you get away from the rocks while fighting the usual on-shore breeze.
Nick, your pump activation system sounds like a nice setup.
The last time I had to get someone out of rocks was probably over ten years ago now, but it was just the paddler. A paddler capsized in some rocks. The coach-in-training happily paddled away towing their boat completely unaware the paddler had let go to try and save the paddle. Too noisy from the surf for my voice to carry and I was in my pretty foolproof Explorer LV so I said screw it and went in for her. Would have been a bit more stable if she had laid on the back deck rather than sitting on it but it worked. I get her back into her boat while the coach went in for the paddle. No way I was going to. (No other paddlers saw that happen and apparently the coach-in-training never told anyone.)
So just a note, if you are pulling a paddler out of rocks that way make sure they stay attached. Insecure or new paddlers can make some very surprising choices.
I have been in that situation i.e. “remount a waterlogged unstable boat in big water” My colleague was in the water (40F) off the Scottish coast. I was in my boat (both boats VCP Skerrays). Neither with built-in bailing systems. I am not sure why you would be trying to “mount” your kayak in those conditions. You can assist someone to “swim into” their boat while it is on-it’s side flooded. Then right it and pump. But before anyone says it - yes it’s a big PITA and it is a dangerous situation to be in because as Mountainpaddler says a flooded boat is very unstable. We hand pumped out and it took a while.I couldn’t imagine this being an option if you were solo. Some people can solo re-enter under water ( as Allan_Olesen says, and some can pop on the spray skirt under water and then roll-up - but it takes practice and in difficult conditions is an edgy thing to try. Also, a note: it is impossible to paddle a fully flooded sea kayak fast - it is unstable and very heavy. Does not perform like a surf ski. My experience is that installed pumps - I don’t trust electric in sea water so I use manual - are better since they can at least be operated one-handed while freeing the other for balance.
A fully flooded sea kayak is actually quite stable. If I am in conditions where I can’t pump, I just start paddling without mounting the sprayskirt. At first it feels unstable, but as soon as a few waves have dumped over the cockpit and filled it, the ride is very smooth.
The “swim in” rescue is usually only necessary for rescuing an incapacitated paddler, and it has a lot of disadvantages. I would hesitate to use it for a conscious, non-injured paddler. A normal T-rescue is much quicker.