A note on a flooded boat and stability. I didn’t go there, but there is a range of views on this one. In the BCU stuff l heard it was a desirable skill to be able to handle a severely flooded boat. Hence my comment about Nick not being dinged for relying on the pump.
FWIW l also find a very flooded boat to be pretty stable. Can’t get it much of anywhere without waves or current helping because it is so heavy. But a severely flooded kayak, just like my ultralight Merlin II sitting with water to its gunwales after yet another unsuccessful reentry attempt, is quite stable. (Some day l really have to put in float bags, but the sheer joy of lifting a 21 pound boat is seductive.)
Anyway, my kayaks are more unstable at the halfway mark than with the cockpit fully flooded.
That is very interesting and potentially important. I’ve only paddled a partially flooded kayak and found it unstable. I’m not eager to try it fully flooded, but I’ll have to do that now.
This has been a surprisingly interesting thread overall!
Well not sure I agree about the stable flooded kayak …mine has always been a heavy hog to haul and steer. Besides I am certain under the situation my colleague could not have handled her boat flooded. Having said that I don’t disagree with your assessment of the rescue I performed. The paddler was conscious but unable to stabilize and frightened and tipped over four times again; each time I helped her in and pumped out. Eventually, she could not get back in again and we were being carried into bigger water with breaking seas over rocks. I towed her and her boat in while she held on in the water. It was not a great rescue though we did both make it out. I was inadequately prepared and schooled in alternative rescue techniques. And I over-assessed her skills and I was over-confident. Having got her in the boat and pumped out, I would today attempt a rafted tow. But then was then and now’s now. Live, fortunately and learn, hopefully…
This is the type of thing I was referring to in the “losing your balance” thread. Losing the ability to stay upright. It is very real, isn’t it? It’s not hard to imagine situations where restoring someone’s ability to stay upright could make all the difference. Contact tows are great, but quite the inefficient unwieldy craft in rough water to make any significant distances.
I picked up one of the battery operated pumps for those paddles with more open water risk. I’ve no meaningful experience with bailers. Discussing ideas of options for difficult situations is great.
So I discussed this topic with a friend in the industry.
Here is his answer:
Sinking----There is generally a very small area for “breathing” between the bulkheads and the cockpit area in order to equalize pressure. The concern is that if enough water got in the cockpit and wasn’t removed, it could begin to make it’s way into the compartments and potentially sink the boat or at least mostly submerge it. This could also happen with a skirt on and possibly with a drysuit if the bailer were accidentally opened and water started to slowly come in and went mostly unnoticed by the paddler until it began to fill.
Weight of boat rendering the bailer to be deeper-- despite the similarity in hulls, sea kayaks tend to be a bit shorter and heavier than surfskis, compunded by the stowage of extra gear for camping, etc, the kayaks tend to sink too low in the water to effectively drain through a bailer. It would drain but at a much slower rate.
Slower-- The extra water weight in the boat, as well as potentially in the compartments (or the stowed gear) would slow the boat down to the point that it wouldn’t drain–see above.
So that’s what an industry guy says. Seems to make sense to me. I think some people kind of hit some of the aspects of this already and missed others.
Pretty interesting.
Too bad though, for those of you that haven’t used them, they are a fantastic addition to a boat.
For me personally, it really opens up confidence when going out into bigger water. It’s nice to not have to worry about a water-logged boat if conditions get ugly.
I have something for breathing in my boats. All of the household sea kayaks either came with (P&H) or we added (NDK) small holes drilled in the bulkhead behind the seat and I think one to the furthest rear bulkhead as well. Don’t recall offhand about the Valley boats but I think so.
Its purpose is to help with pressure.
But if it is that the first point above makes no sense. That hole is placed 2/3 up from the bottom of the boat. By the time the water is that high in the cockpit the paddler knows darned well it is there.
I have had the cockpits in my boats fully flooded more than once when I was trying to roll or trying a self-rescue maneuver that was not working out. I have never had water come thru that small hole from the cockpit into the day hatch over the course of a session of wet work. Not saying impossible, but my experience indicates it is also not a terribly likely event in normal circumstances.
Unless the person is talking about something else.
I would worry about damage to the bailers or seal…
Much different handling as sea kayaks could be loaded with 100 lbs. of gear and landed or pulled up on a beach for the weekend.
I have seen high-end racing skis that never touch the ground…
My guess would be the combination of all 3 issues is where it may become problematic.
If it become water laden, then it would be more difficult to get the speed required to flush out the boat.
Pretty Cool
agreed
I have a racing ski that I avoid solid contact with and two others that have pretty hearty lay ups that can withstand rock gardening and hard impacts.
And you do not wanna be pulled over by the marine cops without a bailing bucket or it’s ticket city! We have them patrolling Lake Ontario by Oakville and Burlington like ducks.
Sorry, but I do not believe anyone would be issued a ticket in a kayak if they had a pump, normally carried, rather than a bailing bucket (or gallon container cut in half).
The latter is what I and many carry in my canoe. It is a fairly silly idea in a kayak given that there are pumps made for that purpose you can get for under $50.
Nice to know if we in the US ever can get into Canada again…
But I always carry a pump and very few kayakers I know do not. Even those in more rec type boats. It is possible this is being beat to death.
What everyone has gone around is that sea kayakers don’t have bailers because sea kayaks aren’t supposed to get that wet inside. They have skirts to keep the water out.
Surfskis are meant to get wet inside, as are small sailboats.
On the topic of bailers. I heard from Mark N, one of our racers, that there are two basic problems that stand out. Mark builds his own and has a racing Sea kayak with a bailer.
A. You need to obtain 4mph and keep it for the bailer to work.
B. The Andersen bailers leak. (Same as s my exp. in the 70s)
C. There’s still water in the bottom of the kayak due to the relative thin hull and flange height of the bailer.
Ok, three items.
That’s all interesting. Except Sea kayak groups of ours average 3.5.
@CraigF
This thread really should not get resuscitated… if you check the replies above you will see that the canoe person who posted higher about bailers being required admitted that pumps are credited as same for kayaks on Lake Ontario. Unlikely that Canada would come up with a different judgement.
