Could anyone explain why there isn’t a 3-piece sectional polyethylene sea kayak with the performance dimensions of an NDK, Valley, P&H etc, legit cockpit outfitting, at a price point that working stiffs can afford? Yes, I know I’m asking for a lot.
With all the chatter about the sea kayak market in decline, it seems to me that if the industry really wants to extend its reach, it needs to offer a sea kayak that reflects the growing income/situational/physical constraints of the population they have heretofore not yet reached.
I am not talking used boats here. Some seniors, or those with bad backs would gladly bring their kayak comfortably to the shore piecemeal if it saved them the ibuprofen afterwards. Others, just getting by with two jobs live in second-floor apartments with no garage, and could store the pieces in their stairwell, or in their unit. I’ve got an SUV, and I could fit all three pieces inside it without needing cross-bars and a roof rack.
Pakayak’s concept was in the right direction, but the cockpit…oh dear. Forget about storing it in a big bag; just make it three easy to assemble sections. I’ve seen pictures of Valley and NDK sectionals but only in fiberglass. Something like that, or a Tempest, but poly to keep it affordable.
You think something like that would sell? Or what am I missing about this idea?
My gut is that sectionals are targeted towards paddlers who travel, rather than someone of modest means who lives on a 3rd floor walkup. If the current RM seakayak manufacturers are having a hard time, “expanding” into producing more costly and heavier sectional RM kayaks is NOT going to help their bottom line.
The “travelling sea kayaker” with means would probably be better served with a Trak 2 folding kayak. Twice the cost of the Pakayak but with lighter weight, packability and better performance attributes (that can be dialed in to preference).
While I have no production understanding of RM’s other than amortizing the molds, I was speculating that a sectional RM would still be a darn sight cheaper than what a fiberglass one is going for. My analog was along the lines of how the introduction of the Toyota Corolla met the fuel economy and durability needs of the car market for a fraction of the cost of what existing new models were going for.
Yup. The thing that I’m sure people love about the Pakayak (the kayak essentially fits inside itself when packed) leaves me lacking with respect to other design features (deck height, cockpit size). I’ve done rescue drills with someone who had one; the cockpit hold a huge amount of water, and scrambling on the deck was tough. But I know a few people who really love’em, and more power to em. Anything that gets you on the water.
Rotomolded plastic (“poly”) kayaks require more expensive molds which require that you make lots of kayaks with them to cover costs. Composite (fiberglass, Kevlar, carbon) molds are a lot less expensive, so work for small manufacturing runs. I guess manufacturers don’t think there is enough market for them.
Have you considered buying a used composite kayak and cutting it at the bulkheads then installing a bulkhead to both the bow and stern sections. It shouldn’t be too difficult to do. You might get a boat repair guy to do it for you if you didn’t feel up to the task.
Hi Peter, Yeah I recall their attempt. I kinda hoped that a monster-sized company like Confluence (Wilderness) would have had the coin to absorb the cost of figuring out how to create a 3-section Tempest. But as the saying goes, “they didn’t get big by not pinching pennies…”
The other advantage would have been if you gouge one up bad enough, You could buy/replace just the ruined section. And, if they wanted to be REAL slick, design it so you could “accessorize” the bow and stern. In other words, when you want a play boat, take the Romany-sized tips; when you want a week’s worth of storage, bring the Explorer-sized bow/stern pieces. Just day dreamin’…
weight + cost and you’re creeping into composite price ranges.
Stellar Kayaks already does this and is expanding the models that can be sectional. The ST14/19MOD allows for one or two cockpits and the S14MOD is the same as their most popular model. For longer sea kayaks the S18EXP & Egret have that option. Oh, and at their heaviest you’re at 45lbs. For an 18’ single or 68lbs for a 19’ tandem
Hi Castoff - I’m not personally in need of a sectional myself (although I’d jump at a poly sectional Romany). The thread was more a response to another thread on the forum lamenting the dwindling numbers of people in long boats, and I wanted to delve into this specific design feature. I am not faulting any company from being prosperous (or merely breaking even). But I think there are legions of people who would really love to get into it, but have constraints that the industry isn’t tapping into.
That’s what I’m talkin’ 'bout! As usual, Marshall’s got the scoop. Let’s hope it takes off and the secondary market makes it reachable for the waitress.
As far as a rotomolded sectional, rotomolded boats are generally significantly heavier than composite boats to begin with. Add a couple of additional bulkheads and mating hardware, even heavier still for total weight. Additionally, rotomolded boats do not have the sharp, clean edges that a composite boat has. So mating the sections might be harder to do cleanly. the additional work to produce a rotomolded sectional would probably add a significant amount to the price, erasing the cost advantage of a plastic boat.
I’ve followed the evolution of portable kayaks for over 20 years (my first touring kayak was a Feathercraft Kahuna in 2002). There are several reasons why you should not expect a “cheap” multi section sit inside kayak to ever come onto the market, sorry to say. Even Point 65 has abandoned making sit insides and only makes sit on tops. Their current sit on top solo weighs 40 pounds and is US$1400. I recall that the sit inside solo they used to make was closer to 60 pounds and that 10 years ago their sit inside Mercury solo model cost USUS $1400. that would be $1800 today, no including tariffs that would apply to a product from Sweden. I used to run into a guy at my favorite large local lake who had a Point 65 Mercury and he let me watch him put it together and let me paddle it for a few minutes (he tried my Feathercraft too, and liked that it was half the weight of his plastic boat and fit in a duffel bag, though mine took about 15 minutes longer to set up). I did not feel the cockpit was that good nor did the somewhat flat hull and wide beam inspire me as a kayak I would expect to perform well in open water.
In order to cast a multi section sit inside kayak requires more material than a sit on top because of the reinforcement required to maintain hull strength and to create sealed bulkheads for safety (if you are looking to make a legit high performing sea kayak. Also having to mold in things like a skeg box adds manufacturing complexity (therefore cost) and weight.
I’m guessing you are aware that the legendary Valley company can make any of their sea kayak models to order in 2 or 3 piece versions. Of course this pushes the price for something like a Sirona from US$3200 to over $4k.
Probably the lightest modular fully competent sea kayaks have been those built by skin on frame kayak home builders. In these cases, they built the model they wanted intact but I think they doubled up the ribs at the points where they would be separated and added strong cross structure to them to proved solid connection foundations. Then they skinned over each of the three sections at both open ends and added through-bolts to connect the 3 parts. They added hatches to the stern and bow sections to that they had access to both ends of the bolts for tightening them. I found the photos below of one such build. This kayak probably weighed under 40 pounds – guessing because my 17’ non-modular skin on frame weighs only 32. If you have basic tools and some wood working ability, a skin on frame is not an impossible project. There are even workshops that you can sign up for to build one in various places. Materials will cost you about $600 – classes usually cost $1000 to $1500 and take about a week. (photos attached of a 3 piece skin on frame). I got a free beat-to-shit skin on frame a few years ago and may use that as a sample to cut up and test some connection plate designs and see how that works.
There are seaworthy folding kayaks that are not that much costlier than mid range plastic touring boats. Pakboat’s 15’ and 26 pound Quest 150 is currently $1,795. (I have owned the 13.5’ long beta version for 12 years) In comparison, a plastic Wilderness Systems Tsunami 145 is $1,549 and the Tsu 165 is $1,699. Riot Edge 15 is $1,300. Considering the extra cost a 3 piece version of those popular plastic boats would likely be well over $2000 it depends on what you classify as “affordable”
All the other European folding solos (besides Pakboat) are now in the $3000 to $5000 range, by the way.
Another advantage of folding kayaks is that you can take them with you overseas by checking them as baggage AND being able to ground transport them yourself. While you could probably take a 3 piece rigid kayak on a flight, the excess baggage charges would be ghastly and you’d have to juggle that bulk at your destination. I can fit my most of folders (which weigh between 20 and 37 pounds)in a rolling duffel bag that I can tow myself through an airport while carrying my other travel kit on my back in a convertible soft travel pack. The duffel with the folder (and all my paddling gear included in with it including a 4 piece paddle, PFD and safety gear) can be stashed in a hotel room or the trunk of a rental car.
Yes, I still salivate over those Stellar modulars. Maybe I will get to your shop to test one at some point. I’d have to sell most, if not all, of my current fleet to afford one.
Yup. I flew my waveski out to Santa Cruz to compete. The cost was almost equivilent to a plane ticket. (This was about 20 years ago.) And then you have to worry whether the waveski was damaged by baggage handlers… I bought a new but “pre-owned” Kalua SofT inflatable waveski (and a four sectional paddle) a couple years back with the thought I might be flying to PR, Costa Rica, CA to surf in my retirement. My reasoning is that I won’t be able to find a waveski that fits me where I travel to and it would be easier to have my own waveski that folds into a bag no bigger than a mid size suitcase come along with me. Of course, the performance is a bit compromised but surf paddling with my own equipment is better than getting to a surf destination with no suitable surf craft available.
Now, I have to ask, what’s the deal with that 3 sectional SOF? Just curious on who made it, who has used it and how much did it cost to actually fly it to another destination (assuming that is the raison d’être). (I am back to thinking one of Tom Yost’s folding designs would have probably been more practical, though lacking the more “traditional” aesthetic of a 3 sectional SOF.)
I’ll have to dig into my SOF archives to find the source of those pics I posted. I seem to recall the builder of that sectional was a guy who traveled to some of the early Greenland skills camps as a coach/instructor. If I can’t find the source I could probably find out through the QajaqUSA forum or ask around at Delmarva camp next month.
Speaking of inflatable long boats, are you familiar with Itiwit’s Race 500?
Regarding the perils of submitting one’s boat to commercial shipping firms, I owe the procurement of my current favorite kayak to their ineptitude. It’s original owner had consigned it to one of the big transport firms when he relocated from the West Coast to Western PA and it arrived with substantial enough forklift damage to the gelcoat that he won a replacement insurance claim against the shipper.
He bought a new boat and abandoned the wounded Avatar 16 in his brother’s barn where it languished for a decade until bro decided he needed that space for a new tractor and posted it on Craigslist for $300 with detailed closeups of the dings, which I could tell were superficial. It was $2500 new in 2004 — an equivalent model today would be pushing 4 Gs (it is similar in specs and performance characteristics to a Romany Classic). Fits me like I was melted and poured into it.
I snagged in within 4 hours of the listing. Only needed new neoprene under-lid “shower caps” and backband (thank you, Topkayaker!) and I have been paddling it for 4 years, still with ripstop mending tape over the few scrapes, though my former neighbor, an old surfer dude who still builds longboards, has offered to restore the pretty gelcoat for me.
