rectorsquid Dave
Now THAT was a good post. Agree 100%.
to slushpaddler
I have strongly agreed with most of your posts so far on this thread, and this one too, makes a valid point. However, not everyone WANTS to paddle more challenging venues. Some of us really truly ARE rec paddlers at heart who are content to putter around a flat lake or pond in our 28" wide boats and watch the birds and turtles for the rest of our lives.
I agree… people need to know about safety (wearing a PFD) and things like hypothermia, but some of us really don’t care that much about formally learning skills. (Informal learning is more fun anyway.) In fact hammering “skills” has a way of turning fun into work, and work is what I’m trying to get away from.
The most important thing is to be realistic about what is required for the type of paddling you want to do. Sea kayaking? Whitewater? Yeah, you definitely need solid skills. Lilydipping? Not so much.
Great post, Waterbird (no message)
Kayaking safety comments from a coach…
http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/110443-paddler-speaks-up-on-safety
elitist
Who here PAYS to learn how to ride a bicycle? No one.
Every year, plenty of kids falls off their bike and had to be taken to the ER. Should be mandate every kid take an instruction course before getting on a bike?
Why should kayaking be singled out?
I teach kayaking for beginners. The last thing a beginner needs is some one telling them they don’t know how to paddle and needs “instruction”! If they want it, they’ll come. Otherwise, you’re nothing but an elilist jerk going around telling others they’re no good at whatever they’re doing!
I hope you are not a teacher. Or I feel sorry for your student with that attitude of yours.
Slightly off topic, but…
This quote “Every year, plenty of kids falls off their bike and had to be taken to the ER. Should be mandate every kid take an instruction course before getting on a bike?” about nobody learning to cycle from a class touched a nerve which points out some validity to the initial post.
Cyclists routinely (at least where I live) do all of the following:
- ride on the wrong side of the road
- cycle at night without any lights
- ride on sidewalks (usually in the wrong direction)
- run lights (rolling through stops is ok if done safely, but I chuckle as I write that)
- cycle with loud music making it impossible to hear other important sounds
- cross streets without looking (usually because of the headphones)
The list goes on. If the person rides in front of a semi-truck and gets pulped, the news reports that they either “were/weren’t wearing a helmet,” as if .50 cents worth of foam would make a difference. Then life goes on as usualy.
Yet, if someone has a near drowning while swimming, they close the city pool for an investigation. If someone needs a rescue, there is a push made to ban paddlers from using the facilities. I have to agree that our over-reaction to certain events is rather…well, dumb, and our under-reaction to other events is simply insane.
And the parents of all these cyclists who ride on the sidewalks, in the wrong direction, etc. learned from their parents that this is the safe way to ride because I see them training their children to do just that on a daily basis. When the blindly stupid are the trainers for the next generation of cyclists, you just have to shake your head in dispair.
Rick
Bicycle Parallel
– Last Updated: Jun-25-12 4:55 AM EST –
Most people don't realize how much hard work went into getting the agreements that now make it possible to ride your bike on public roads. There was a window for those who are old enough that people were being stopped by local police from riding their bikes in a number of places that are now common, like through downtown streets. Not everywhere, but enough to raise a real problem for more serious riders.
The League of American Wheelmen, since renamed the American Cycle Club or similar, got all of us the right to ride by working out agreements in each state where bicyclists could be subject to the same rules as drivers of cars. So while there is not a hefty fine system or a license point penalty in place, adult riders can and have been ticketed for speeding and violating traffic signals. Most serious adult riders wish local police would do more of this, frankly.
No sense
I don’t understand your point of view at all and that is coming from an instructor.
The ACA serves the same purpose as any other organization that promotes an activity and a bit more.
The ACA promotes safety, resources, education and consistency in said education, and more importantly to those in clubs, though the membership may not know it, that ACA provides insurance to clubs for events, outings, classes and even to their certificated instructors who teach those interested for $25 (provided they jump through a few minor hoops).
To speak to a few other points here: I believe that kayaking can be self taught, but how hard do you want to work to learn something that would be simple - and safer in the long run (I say safer after watching paddlers trying to learn to roll on their own and inflicting awful injuries to their shoulders)? I spent the first few years of my time as a paddler (both in my sea phase and my WW phase doing things that perhaps I shouldn’t and I survived, though I didn’t always know how close I was, sometimes, to the line between surviving and not.
Regarding paddling along the coast, there are a lot of things you need to have a decent understanding of: Tides and currents, navigation, rescue (well, everyone should have some fundamental skills for this, but I digress), weather and a host of other things. Paddling in WW requires a completely different set of skills (yes, the strokes ARE different)and body of knowledge. For those committed pond paddlers in their rec boats, have fun, do what you want, but keep in mind that you are as subject to the cold of the water and as susceptible to injury from bad technique as the rest of us (bad technique will hurt you over the long run, though I think most of us have bad technique somewhere in our repertoire).
I guess the point I have to make regarding the ACA and paddling instruction is that the ACA is a worthwhile organization as they are YOUR advocate in the paddle sports community and I think that, as paddlers, we are all trying to grow and become better paddlers in our chosen environment in our chosen craft. Many seek instruction to help with that, be it from friends, paying instructors (do more of that please;)) getting involved with their local clubs, etc.
All I can say, be safe. Even those of us out on the coast in the rocks and cliffs or picking our way down class IV or V rivers should always do the gut check. We can drown more easily than the guy on the pond who can’t rectify his capsize. The pond is just ignoring the poor lilydipper, but is actively seeking to run us through the meat grinder.
thread drift
– Last Updated: Jun-25-12 11:38 AM EST –
"- ride on the wrong side of the road"
Runners routinely run on the wrong side of the road, so they can SEE traffic coming.
Some cyclist believe in that. It's against the traffic rule but that's not a skill issue.
- cycle at night without any lights
Runners and pedestrian does that too. They would benefit from lights but it's not required. Frankly, I don't think that's such a big deal. Again, it's not a skill issue.
- ride on sidewalks (usually in the wrong direction)
If the roads have shoulder or bike lane, 90% of the cyclists wouldn't be on the sidewalk!!!
- run lights (rolling through stops is ok if done safely, but I chuckle as I write that)
Pedestrian do that all the time.
- cycle with loud music making it impossible to hear other important sounds
- cross streets without looking (usually because of the headphones)
Runners do that all the time!
By law, bikes are vehicles. But car drivers don't respect cyclists as equals. Partly as a reaction to that, many cyclists behave as pedestrians. You can't just blame cyclists for not obeying the law when obeying it in many situations are MORE dangerous!
None of the above are actually 'skill' issues. If a kayaker is ignorant enough to be cruising down the shipping channel of San Francisco Bay, how "skill" he is becomes totally irrelevant!!!
Cycling Story
When at UCD, I didn’t own a car for the first 2 years. I used to cycle everywhere and that, plus water polo, put me in pretty decent shape. One weekend, we decided to play some football in the rain on the south side of campus and my apartment was about 5 miles away on the north. Coming back, since 14th street is a long straight road with no stop signs, I really cut loose and rode as fast as I could.
I was passing a long line of cars and zipping along quite nicely when I heard the blurp of a siren behind me. One of the cars I passed was a Davis police car and he was, shall we say, a bit annoyed with me. I had steel rims and, of course, they were soaked, so the brakes were pretty much useless. I put my tennis shoe between the down tube and the tire and wore a groove on the heal, but until the bike slowed, that provided most of the braking power. The conversation went like this:
Cop : Do you know how fast you were going
Me (this is 1977, no bike computers) : No, how would I?
Cop : You were going 38 miles/hour.
Me (excited) : Really, I didn’t know I could go that fast (yeah, this may have been wind assisted a bit, it was a storm after all)
Cop : The speed limit on this road is… (I really don’t recall, probably 25 knowing Davis, but let’s just say I was well above it)
Me : I just figured the traffic was slow due to the rain. I had no idea I could go that fast (not quite true, I’d been clocked at 35 or so by a friend in his car a few days before when I was riding in traffic away from school)
He let me go with a warning, but noted that they now knew who I was and would keep an eye out.
So yes, short story, cops SHOULD enforce cycling rules, but since many cyclists are children with no id they seem to have developed a habit of ignoring cyclist infractions. In the rare instance they do respond, it is usually to egregious infractions which make motorists take evasive moves to avoid a collision (and then, usually, they’d rather cite the car driver if there is any dispute over responsibility). The result is that little, if anything, is done to educate cyclists and there is no motivation, then, for them to become better cyclists or citizens.
Fortunately, those who adopt paddling tend to want to get better and do seek educational opportunities, over time. When your friends want to run rapids or watch whales and they don’t think you have the skill set to go on the trip, you suddenly start asking, “What do I have to do…”
I just wish the cycling community had that same mentality.
Rick
until they capsize…
And can’t get back in…
Never said they were cyclist skill issue
This was a thread on education for paddler and a parallel was made to cyclists and their lack of education.
As for your other points:
“Runners routinely run on the wrong side of the road, so they can SEE traffic coming.”
And pedestrians and runners (same thing, actually) have a different set of rules and while they may be on the wrong side of the road, it is actually safer to not be, since vehicles looking for potential risk are looking in an entirely different location most of the time. Running shoes, also, have reflective material on the back of the shoe for a bit of extra safety (not on the front). Runner night vision is also affected by oncoming lights and cannot see where they are placing their feet, which is a much bigger concern than being hit from behind (a very rare, but usually fatal event).
“Some cyclist believe in that. It’s against the traffic rule but that’s not a skill issue.”
It is a violation of the vehicle code in many states (certainly is in Calif.). Some states wrongly don’t have this clause and, I’ve been told, but cannot verify this, there are municipalities that mandate opposite direction cycling (which is patently stupid).
- cycle at night without any lights
Different rules once again. For cyclists, who may be moving at 15-25 MPH, this is problematic. Most joggers are at about 10 MPH (world class runners are a different story). Cyclists on the road are required by law to be equipped with lights for several reasons, including the safety of pedestrians and themselves.
“If the roads have shoulder or bike lane, 90% of the cyclists wouldn’t be on the sidewalk!!!”
Bike lanes actually have increased bike/car interactions, believe it or not. How one rides is more important than how paint is placed on the asphalt. Bike lanes didn’t exist when I learned to ride and I have never had an incident with the car (I used to commute 10-15 miles through silicon valley by bike for several years - 10000+ miles/year). I’ve seen others approach poorly lined intersections and end up inside the turning arc of (right) turning cars, resulting in either collision or angry words. Proper cycling technique would have eliminated the situation (as would alert drivers, but those pretty much are as common as unicorns).
more points where different rules apply deleted.
“By law, bikes are vehicles. But car drivers don’t respect cyclists as equals. Partly as a reaction to that, many cyclists behave as pedestrians. You can’t just blame cyclists for not obeying the law when obeying it in many situations are MORE dangerous!”
Total bull, except for the point that cyclists don’t ride according to the vehicle code. If you want to learn (learning = skill, no matter how you want to separate the two), reference Forrester’s “Effective Cycling.” I have a few issues with some of his points, but he basically wrote the material I had already learned.
“None of the above are actually ‘skill’ issues. If a kayaker is ignorant enough to be cruising down the shipping channel of San Francisco Bay, how “skill” he is becomes totally irrelevant!!!”
Partially inaccurate to equate skill and technical ability. I may have the technical ability to brace, roll, surf, etc. but my judgement (such as, “can I beat that tanker to the Port of Redwood City?”) about what I can and cannot do is a huge part of my skill set.
I apologize if I sound a bit harsh, that really isn’t my intention. I have listened to justification for bad cycling behavior for about 50 years now and I have a low tolerance threshold for same.
Rick
Water is harsher than Land
– Last Updated: Jun-25-12 2:05 PM EST –
Fall off a bike; you get up, 99 times out of 100.
Fall off a kayak , the odds are considerably worse.
""judgement about what I can and cannot do
is a huge part of skill set ""
Knowledge and willingness to learn contribute
greatly to judgement, intuition, and risk taking.
Kids truly WANT to learn, Adult often don't.
Kayaks are Boats
Kayakers must obey Boating Rules or face fines
Ignorance is not an excuse in a court of law
Not always necessary
You don’t need a lesson to get out in a pedal boat, or try snorkeling, or do a little introductory day hiking, or paddle a SOT or rec yak or a canoe around close to shore. For some people, staying at that level gives them plenty of enjoyment, they have no need or desire to get more advanced in their paddling, and that is perfectly alright. For people who have gotten interested in moving beyond that, some may want to advance rapidly, so will take classes, read books, watch videos, etc. Others may advance more slowly, more organically, by making incremental steps into new experiences, getting comfortable with those, making another incremental step, etc.
I think sometimes there is a tendancy to a little bit of snobbery, of taking the sport a little too seriously by not acknowledging that beginning recreational paddling is pretty safe and intuitive, especially for those who have had other boating experience.
What alternative do you suggest?
Some people are just naturally cautious, and will seek out instruction before they begin. Others will be cautious enough and have enough common sense to shy away from conditions they haven’t faced before, turn back when they realize they are out of their comfort zone. Others are less cautious, will push the envelope, no matter what. Trying to persuade these gungho types to get training probably isn’t going to work, they don’t think they need training no matter what. The only way to get these people training would be to require it legally, and I don’t think we want to go down that road.
My friend’s sister
broke her neck when she fell hiking. She’s lucky in that she eventually regained use of her arms, and that she could switch her specialization to radiology.
Hikers get lost and suffer hypothermia, some even dying, every year.
Doing any activity involves a certain amount of risk. We can’t legislate that people must be trained before they can be allowed to buy a pair of hiking shoes, or step off the pavement onto a trail. Neither should we legislate that anyone who wants to buy and paddle a rec boat in his neighborhood pond should have to get training “just in case” he decides to do a little more.
My Experience
Uhhh… I got into the kayak thing because crashing on a bike can break bones and tipping over a kayak puts you in nice, soft water.
Now I have to humbly support your argument: I sure could have used some instruction before I tried paddling in the Beaufort Inlet as the tide was rushing out. It was dangerous and scared hell out of me. Luckily it all worked out well and it was a great motivator to acquire good braces and rolls. To generalize… folks are ignorant of the NEED for instruction. I think Flatpick used the term ‘unconsciously incompetent’. I was that until I hit the inlet. Then I became ‘consciously incompetent’.
More snobbery
– Last Updated: Jun-25-12 3:29 PM EST –
to address a few of your points. To say that simply gaining experience is to gain skill is not accurate. Skill requires deliberate training and education. To acquire good judgment, in any activity, requires skill, education and experience.
When children are taught to roll in Greenland they are taught to scull first, then roll, then other skills.
Paddlers, whose skills never progress past beginner regardless of experience, get into trouble when assuming that experience equals skills and expertise.
Finally, other boating experience isn't similar to kayaking anymore than kayaking is similar to rowing or sailing. It is a false equivalency.
harsh as harsh goes
– Last Updated: Jun-25-12 3:35 PM EST –
"I have listened to justification for bad cycling behavior for about 50 years now and I have a low tolerance threshold for same."
And I have listen for about 40 years of elitist preaching in condescending tones to beginners. So I have equally low tolerance for same.
This whole thread is about INSTRUCTION of TECHNICAL SKILL. Taught by condescending instructors only kind of "skill"! Read the opening post to refresh yourself first.