thanks
my daughter has appropriated both my dog AND royalex Vagabond. The boats look neat.
response to correction
David Yost, the designer claims they are the same hull below the waterline; RobRoy, the later hull, being a scaled down version of Magic. Of course, above waterline Magic has shoulders and RR has a semi deck
My earlier defense of this position seems over the top to me by Sunday afternoon. I apologize to all for an unseemly pique.
it’s funny, mick
– Last Updated: Jun-24-07 10:10 PM EST –
Mick can answer directly, but
indirectly I see his evolution as a paddler sort of paralelling mine. For a while he liked the Souris boats, then the Krugers, then the Bells and now he has progressed to Placid fire boats. Along the way he wore out a few plastic rec boats, too.
In my case I started with Bell tripping canoes, moved to Wavesport whitewater kayaks, back to Bell whitewater canoes, then Bell and Loonworks freestyle canoes, then to P&H sea kayaks, then to Swift canoes and touring kayaks, and now I’m interested in the Rapidfire. Along the way I’ve tried at least a dozen recreational kayaks and recreational canoes.
I for one appreciate Mick’s enthusiasm and willingness to share his opinion of the canoes he’s interested in, and if he can’t make up his mind which one he likes the best, today, that’s okay, too. It’s all good.
ps: he don’t work for Placid, either
and I forgot to mention his brief love affair with Sawyer’s
that’s fine
– Last Updated: Jun-24-07 9:38 PM EST –
It’s in the knees
– Last Updated: Jun-24-07 10:19 PM EST –
I hate to reveal a piece of embarrassing personal information, but someone should write the truth!
It is common knowledge that the Inuit developed the kayak, a decked derivitave of the canoe, in response to a hereditary issue: ugly knees! Those poor guys couldn't get a date with females of their own tribe, so they covered over the problem. Pretty smart!
Mick had a set of the worst looking knees of all time; so he naturally gravitated to decked watercraft.
I have reason to believe he went in for cosmetic knee enhancement about 18 months ago. Now he wants to show his knees off! Kinda similar to my last ex wife; oh never mind.
champagne charlie
Your post is funny, Chad
The thread is basically about the Rob Roy (a DY boat design made by Bell) which I have never liked for me and have always voiced firmly. The original post was asking a comparison to a model of the Pungo, which I believe used to be the KeoWee I had years ago. My family out grew the KeoWees and I simply stated so (I actually took the Pungos inclusion to be a joke, like the old Pungo jokes whole threads used to be made from here on the boards?) You must remember all the pungo jokes!
Then someone added the RapidFire (a Dy boat design made by Placid BoatWorks). As I have one I gave my impressions. These are not new impressions. These observations and comments are very much like the very early and continued observations and comments I have made about my WildFire, FlashFire, and the StarFires I have paddled (all DY boat designs made by either Bell or Placid Boatworks).
My position has not changed on the decked canoes (Kruger, Sawyer, Superior, and others designed by Kruger, Smith, and others) I do like. I find them superior hulls for what they are designed for, but they have always been and still are no fun in rapids and to play in which DY’s smaller boats, specifically the fire boat always have been. A big change is I am not actively paddling them distances these days. I am not currently involved in setting records, training, or making any decked canoes. Most talk of decked canoes on p.net had gone by the wayside. In fact I sail my decked canoes more than paddle them these days. Didn’t you and I have a sailing discussion not too long ago?
I was associated with Sawyer for a short period. I did find hulls I liked there and kept a few. There were some boats I did not like. Both the solo boats I liked and did not like were DY designs all.
So as far as I am concerned it seems this thread for me has been what hulls designed by DY I like and which ones I do not like. I have never met DY and do not work for him or with him. Maybe someday if I am lucky.
I also do not work for or with Placid BoatWorks. I am only a customer and I hope a friend of the owners. I do not work for Superior, but am a friend of the owners. I do not work for Kruger or any other canoe or kayak maker. I do own a few old canoe molds, but they are in storage and no one is making or promoting hulls out of them. The closest thing to being currently actively involved with canoe production, sales or anything like that is a long term study; conducting a few informal surveys, and proposing different sized decked canoes that may fit a niche in the industry. I also participate in the purchase of new and used canoes and the sale of used ones.
I have not changed alliance with or for anyone. I like most all canoes, OK, I do not like We-NO-nah canoes. And kayaks are but a subclass of canoe. I have been an open canoe guy all my life. I have also been a decked canoe guy since I met Verlen Kruger back in 2001 or so.
I hope there are not too many mistakes in this. I have to run and donot have the time to go back over it. I think i got it right, but I may have to make corrections as needed later.
Mick
OK
– Last Updated: Jun-25-07 8:49 AM EST –
Keowees and Pungos not the same.
I have a Keowee I and Keowee II (neither used in the last couple years) and have seen a Pungo and they didn’t seem to be the same boats to me.
Keowees were made by Perception/Aquaterra.
Pungos were made by Wilderness Systems.
I don’t think, but I could be wrong, that Keowees were still being made after WS and Perception joined under the Confluence label
Please correct me if I’m wrong, I really don’t know the history of Perception or WS, but didn’t think that the Keowee and Pungo looked the same to me.
Best Boat?
– Last Updated: Jun-26-07 12:36 AM EST –
We've had alively discussion about what is athe best canoe for.....
Actually, there isn't any such thing. We are all improving as paddlers over time and failing as athletes. Tough stuff.
Example: The Dragonfly, a result of collaboration between David Yost and Harold Deal produced by Curtis Canoe. It won several ACA championships, yet intermediate to improving advanced paddlers were often intimidated by it.
When I commissioned WildFire, I asked DY to give me a bottom almost as fast and that turned as quickly, but wouldn't scare good, not world class, paddlers.
Harold paddled Wild the first year is came out at Jersey Paddlers June event. He asked why we hadn't rounded the bottom more? Simple answer, CC sold 56 Dragonflys in a decade, Bell sold 80 WildFires the first year of production. It met the market better. Which is the better boat? Kinda depends....
We need to test paddle boats, preferably in adverse conditions. That said, pick a boat that challenges you a little - you'll improve as a paddler.
Of course, get the best boat you can afford or justify, and here's a kicker, spend a quarter what that hull costs on your paddle. The stick in your hands effects what goes on under your butt more than the hull you're sitting/ kneeling in, and at a fraction of the coist.
as ever, charlie
OK Chad
– Last Updated: Jun-24-07 11:29 PM EST –
I did volunteer work at Kruger's shop once or twice a week for a couple of years. That included building boats, impromptu paddles, and helping set up for the Great Mississippi River Race. I never tried to take control of the company. Near the end of my time there I did mention to Verlen that if his other deals to sell the company fell through and my inheritance came through in time I would like the opportunity see about the possibility of buying his company. That request put me about fifth in line for consideration. It was but a pipe dream anyway as with family (I was Mr Mom and have a disabled son) I could not afford the time to successfully run an active manufacturing business and deep down I knew it. I was sharing my dream with you.
Back then I was also buying and selling used Kruger boats, and was talking about them quite a bit. That proved to be quite a lesson in word of mouth advertising. The priced did shoot up so much that I could not comfortably trade in them any longer. Sure surprised me! That live lesson was far better than any college course could ever be. I had to move on to trading in other canoes.
I never said that the Rob Roy was not for anyone. I have in fact recommended the Rob Roy to many paddlers, especially ladies and smaller men that like a little harder tracking hull. I deferred a lot of paddlers to you as an example and for advice.
I still have not changed alliances. I have maintained alliances in many aspects of canoeing. I still like the decked expedition hulls a lot. It is true they are not my focus at present. I like smaller very responsive open canoes more than a lot as I always have. I find I like pack canoes a great deal as well. My wife seems to like pack canoes best of all. What I really love the most are light wooden canoes, but alas I am too hard on my toys and tend to damage them so I only look from afar. I have a one of a kind Cheemaun. The only asymmetrical Cheemaun I know of and the only Cheemaun made by Dan Miller of DragonFly Canoe. If DY designed the Cheemaun this would be it ;^) Love to paddle it, but it hangs in my family room where it is safe from me ;^)
Darn! There I go doing it again. I have changed alliances. Now everyone is going to want a Cheemaun. There will be treasure hunters trying to make off with my Cheemaun. Or is it that I am just enjoying my affliction, my hobby gone mad?
So, Chad. When are we ever going to make that paddle together actually work?!
Mick
Aw Charlie!
Now you have done it!
Jack V had all the ladies convinced I was 6’4", blonde, Greek God looking of a man.
Now you have gone and ruined my image! All they are going to do now is look at my baggy scared knees!
Ruin My Whole Day!
Mick
I forgot about Souris River Canoes!
They were an early and continued love of mine. I do not talk of them much anymore as does hardly anyone on p.net. Drastic price increases, an always hard to get along with importer, and finely a turn around for the worst several years back in customer relations at the company level seem to have taken their toll. I and others still like the canoes, we just do not talk about them much anymore. The availability of Souris canoes to actually see and touch has greatly dried up as well.
Oh wait. They were not in this thread …
:^)
Mick
You are most probably right Yanoer.
– Last Updated: Jun-25-07 6:34 AM EST –
There is just something about guys when they are mesmerized by a pretty lady. "She" told me that, and then later another lady told me the same thing. See there was a double check, but does a double check count when it is another pretty lady? Seems the guard relaxes and mis-info slips right by! ;^)
I do plead guilty of not triple checking facts. When told Pungo was the new KeoWee it sounded plausible to me. Being through with plastic kayaks anyway it was easy to use this simple label and move on.
Thanks for straightening me out. So now I'll stop using that misstated info and not look quite so foolish.
>:^)
Mick
1/4 for paddle, 1/4 for classes
I agree with CE. Buy a good boat, buy a good paddle, and, my own advice, take some good lessons. I’ve been canoeing for 52 years, but never got good at it till I got a good boat, a good paddle and took some good lessons. After three years studying under two of the leading canoeists in the country I’m now enjoying the sport more than I ever thought possible. As a result I’m craving more and more performance from my equipment and myself.
Incidentally, it was pointed out to me just yesterday that the question leading this thread was meant to be a joke. Nobody would seriously compare the Bell to the Pungo, although most of us have paddled a Pungo at one time or another and can use it as a benchmark of sorts for comparison.
Sort of a joke. Call it an eye catcher
to get a good answer , and it certainly has.
Rapidfire ,how tippy?
The Rob Roy is a pretty stable canoe . I tried out a “pack” canoe
from Vermont , and found it very tippy . Is the Rapidfire a good
deal more tippy then the Rob Roy?
RapidFire is not tippy.
Now take a surf ski, that is tippy!!!
Tippy is a hard question to answer as it is so subjective. The answer even changes for the same hull when you have more experience. How tippy is the Rob Roy to you now verses the first time? Are you asking for overall or just paddling tippiness. Both these hulls are quite unstable when entering and exiting. ;^)
Take a look at some specs for each:
RapidFire
Length: oa 15’, wl 14’7"
Length/width ratio: 7.5
Weight: 28#
End view:
Beam: Rails 24"
Max 27.5"
3" wl 24"
Rob Roy
Length: 15’
Length/width ratio: 7.1
KevLight - 31 lbs.
BlackGold - 35 lbs.
Gunwale width - 20.5"
Max width - 28.5"
3" WL width - 25.5"
Hummm, looks like the RapidFire should be tippier, huh? (Look at that weight and that l/w ratio, lighter and faster, hummm. Off subject, bad, bad. Recaluclate, recalculate.)
Now for my opinion. It looks like the Rob Roy wins the stability war no question. But is feel important, more so, less so, than the compared facts when they are close? I feel more comfortable and therefore I feel more stable in the RapidFire. I feel that is mainly because I feel I am in and not on top of it like with the Rob Roy. And my knees have somewhere to contact the hull and assist with stability which does not happen for me in the Rob Roy. If I feel better, more stable in it then isn’t it less tippy for me? This is mainly just an exercise in communications. You need to spend a dozen trips really learning a within reason tippy boat and it will no longer be tippy. You will wonder what the initial fuss was about anyway.
Now for the way I do treat the hulls differently. Where the seat is on the bottom it is a big part of the stability. I do not step in as I normally would in a canoe. Normally I would grab onto the gunwales and step into the center of the canoe with one foot. Then I would step in with the other foot and sit down. The only bottom sitters I do that with are my Soaring Eagle or Sea Wind which are overly stable hulls. The rest, like the SpitFire and RapidFire, I take ahold of the gunwales and put one foot into the center. Then I lower my butt onto the seat and bring the other leg into the hull.
Hope this helps you answer is it tippy for you.
:^)
Mick
PADDLEFEST photos
I didn’t take the photos. They are from the Mountainman Outdoors site. Did 20+ river miles in a kayak 3 weeks ago and decided I still prefer canoes. Couldn’t wait to get out and back into my canoe for the rest of the trip. No way I’m going over to the dark side. Wasn’t there this year due to wife’s health but last year and years before there were a lot of canoes to view and test paddle.
If someone prefers kayaking, that’s their perogative. We can’t all have good taste.