Rapidfire - How Tippy?
Johnsternow,
As Mick notes above, one should get into the Rapidfire by holding both gunnels, touch one foot inside and using those three points, lowed your butt into the canoe. I’ve been doing that for 15 years in pack canoes, so it feels easy for me. To get out, I hang one leg over the side touch bottom with that foot and then stand on that leg by pushing down on both gunnels to lift my butt out of the canoe. This process will take a little practice, but works with a Rapidfire- I haven’t tipped over or fell in yet- of course I will someday. It is possible to get in by straddling the hull and dropping your butt in, but I don’t think that is a wise practice as pack canoes usually don’t have enough strength built into the sidewalls to allow for that unusual entry practice. The sidewall are built thiner for weight savings, as they do not have to support hung seats.
As to the canoe when paddling, it doesn’t feel tippy to me. This is a relative thing, depending on what you are used to. I’m ok in kayaks down to 20" width. Narrower that that feels tippy to me. Yet there are folks who are comfortable paddling 17" kayaks. Paddle a Rapidfire to see if it feels tippy to you. If it feels ok, be assured that it will feel even more stable with experience paddling it.
Dave
So , the sides of these light weight
boats can be broken with pressure, even if floated at the time?
I defer to CE , he seemed to put it best
With his "Please define 'pack canoe'" thread answer of:
"WE (Placid BoatWorks) get the odd paddler who wants a kneeling seat installed. We used to add 2 carbon belly bands to support the weight but due to disagreement with our customers over what "smaller paddlers" means,[ 210 is smaller only in the NFL], we've gone to a much heavier reinforcement to stiffen the sides."
Now as to my take: Placid's pack canoes are not fragile Jim. But they are not made for gorillas either. My brother, the literal 340# "bull in the china shop", is not allowed to even touch my light canoes as most everything he touches does break. Pack canoes are fine for normal use. I use them harder than that. I had Charlie and Joe put in a complete extra interior layer of Kevlar in my (wife's) RapidFire as I know I am rough on boats. I have a standard laid up Spitfire as well. I detect very little difference in the side wall flex when I hoist my 200 plus pounds in and out with my hands on their gunwales. After the first few times in either hull I stopped even thinking about it.
The Savage River rec(?) canoes I paddled had even thinner side walls and I would consider them fragle. Their side walls really flexed! And yet paddlers do not seem to have problems.
I think it is all a relative thing, understanding and working with what you get for your paddling vehicle.
AND JIM, THEY ARE LIGHT, LIGHT, LIGHT AND FUN TO PADDLE AND HANDLE :^) :^) :^)
>:^)
Mick
I gathered that Mick.
I like that light part . Everything I have is fun to paddle.
Rapidfire hull strength
String,
The Rapidfire has a strong, stiff hull! I’m 6’ and weight 210 and find it very stiff.
I gave the wrong impression when I cautioned against using a common kayak entry procedure. Most pack canoes are too wide to even consider this entry method and I was making a generalization about experience with other canoes when discussing this entry with the Rapidfire. Many canoes have thin sections where strength is not needed to reduce weight. Pack canoes are sit on bottom and don’t need as strong sides as are needed to support a hung seat. I’ve seen a Wenonah that was designed for a bottom tractor seat that was converted to a hung seat and there are fractures under the seat attachment because the sidewall were not designed for this seat attachment. If someone wanted to use this kayak entry method all the time Charlie and Joe could add fabric at the sides if needed. They added fabric in two places at my request, although it probably wasn’t needed. They are used to dealing with strange (to them) requests and do so with grace. The Rapidfire standard lay up has plenty of strength for a normal pack canoe entry as discussed above by Mick and I.
Sorry for the confusing digression about that kayak entry style. The hull is quite strong and amazingly strong for a 15’ canoe that weights under 30 lbs.
Dave
Thanks Daver. I get very cautious
when talking about that kind of money, particularly when I have about zero chance of paddling one before buying it.
RapidFire sidewall strength
I’m one of the “smaller” 210-pounders that Charlie likes to razz. I got my boat before (very shortly before) Placid introduced the new kneeling layup. Here are my three data points on sidewall strength of the RapidFire, with the older kneeling layup.
(1) I always get into the boat with one foot in the center, one foot on the dock, and most of my weight on my hands on the rails, which I think is what Dave was describing as “kayak-style.” I’ve never had any sidewall problems with that at all, so I think someone considerably heavier could enter and exit that way.
(2) I have the kneeling-height seat, and I often paddle sitting, sit-and-switch, so even more of my weight is on the rails than when I’m kneeling. When I’m paddling hard, the belly of the boat moves up a little and down a little, thump-thump, with every stroke, presumably because my immense weight on the sidewalls has compromised stiffness. Charlie doesn’t like it that I sit-and-switch, because the boat wasn’t made for that much weight that high. I suspect the new layup would cure the problem. For now, I am pondering the design of the perfect pedestal.
(3) A week ago my club had a rescue clinic. I was T-rescued twice with no sidewall problems. (I have rigged the boat with float bags.) But then the instructor and I did a T-rescue time trial, so I would have a goal to work toward. I hauled my 210 pounds out of the water, using the rails, as fast as I could. I heard some creaking sounds – couldn’t tell if it was the resin or the wooden rails – so I eased off a bit. No visible cracks upon later inspection. The new layup would probably help with this problem, too, though I’m not sure it would cure it completely; a seal flop is a lot of stress. I don’t care about the extra five seconds that much, so I will do future rescues a little more deliberately.
All of this is to say that the older kneeling layup is sufficient for big guys, but only marginally sufficient when stressed beyond standard usage. Presumably the newer kneeling layup can take more pressure.
I don’t want to deter you with these quibbles. Overall, I love the boat. I’ve gotten over last fall’s concern that I had (relative to my WildFire) lost two grand, lost stability, lost an inch of kneeling height, lost rigidity, lost turning ability – and gained no speed. Now I’ve learned to Trust The Flare, take waves from any angle, and concentrate on forward speed. It’s a blast.
– Mark
caution when spending big $
String,
You should be cautious when buying an expensive canoe. Don’t take my “word” or Mick’s or anyone else beyond using our opinions to narrow the field.
PADDLE the canoe in question for a long time trial. Paddling in wind and rough waves is best, but a long paddle (hours) is next best.
After my first trial paddling it, I paddled the Rapidfire a few more times before putting my $ down. Charlie and Joe were probably getting sick of seeing me. It was easier for me because living in CT I’m closer to Lake Placid than you.
Don’t know how soon you may be buying, but I expect to be at Raystown in early Oct and will be bringing the Rapidfire. If you have not been reeled in by then you could try my canoe there.
Dave
Rapidfire hull
Hi Mark,
I get into the Rapidfire as Mick, you and I described: place a foot in the canoe, hold both gunnels and using all three points to balance and distribute weight, lower my butt onto the seat.
The possible method I described as an afterthought was to STRADDLE the hull and then lower butt into seat. Didn’t recommend that method and cautioned against it as possibility stressful to hull. In later post I called this a kayak method because most canoes are too wide to consider this way and some folks do enter kayaks this way. Forget I mentioned it.
My Rapidfire was build in late Fall and I haven’t talked to Charlie or Joe about possible hull lamination changes- what might have been done or when. I saw the slight flex in floor when cranking an older demo canoe and requested an additional layer in floor and behind the footbraces. Can’t say they are necessary, just something I had added. I’m quite pleased with the stiffness of my hull. I paddle on their lower seat and the slightly higher optional seat, both sit-on-bottom style. My weight is about the same as yours.
Just as an aside, I’m not fixated on speed, don’t race or time my boats with GPS, but the Rapidfire is quick and I can’t believe it the Wildfire is the same speed. Increased width, increased wetted surface and greater rocker should make the Wildfire (a fine canoe) slower and more maneuverable.
Dave
pack boat entry
For our Hornbeck and Hemlock pack canoes, my wife and I find the easiest way to enter is to put the canoe in about knee-deep water, put your back to the canoe and just sit down in the bottom over the gunwale. Then lift legs and pivot to bring them aboard. Exit is just the reverse; bracing yourself with the seat thwart and your paddle placed across the gunwales can help. A straddle entry is clumsy and slow, although I can see how this might be easier with a narrower boat (Placid). Entry from a dock is more exciting requiring the foot-in-the-middle-grasp-the-gunwales method described earlier... until you get your weight sitting on the bottom of the boat, these little boats feel very tender. I agree they are a hoot to paddle.
I checked Mapquest. It is only about
16 hours to get up there. It’s closer than Ely anyway.
Entry into pack canoes
Tom,
Lets stop discussing the straddle entry. I mentioned it as an aside and it has been a topic of discussion ever since. Works on some kayaks (I don’t use it on mine) and can be done with a Rapidfire. I’m not recommending it. You would find it very painful in a wider canoe such as a Hornbeck.
I will try the “back into canoe” way you mentioned on a Hauthaway hull that I have thats similar to the Hornbeck hull. Will try it on Rapidfire in the next week or so. I think the tumble home will make your method difficult on the Rapidfire, but the water is warm enough for a swim.
I do find getting in and out is easier on my old knees when the canoe or kayak is in 1-1.5’ of water.
Dave
The same is true of my Voyager and
Tarpon. Enough water so my knee isn’t bent past 90 Deg is the best place to exit.
Stop scaring me with all this bad knee
talk.
Every once in a while I get stabs in the knee(s). Like after mowing the steep angled back yard, climbing stairs too fast while carrying a load, etc. I have been telling myself nothing to worry about, just need to exercise more, and take a little better care. Been working as I do not remember the last time …
Then you start mentioning knees again and I feel it.
Go away! ;^)
Mick
about your last paragraph
Possibly I didn't make myself clear about speed: My worry that I hadn't gained any speed was *so* 2006. Now that I've gotten used to the boat and don't worry about falling in anymore, I am going noticeably faster than I could go in the WildFire.
My Rapid was built near the end of August 2006. I don't know how soon after that Charlie and Joe changed their layup or to what layup they added your special-request fabric.
-- Mark
deeper water exit/knees
Mick,
Sorry to have brought up knees if it is a sore subject for you (yeh, lame pun). You can live with less than perfect knees if you keep your weight down and exercise.
I have damaged cartilage in the back of both knees. When I injured the first knee I went to a Sports MD and did the PT and MRI route. When PT didn’t solve the problem and the MRI showed a tear in the cartilage in the rear of the meniscus, the remaining question was surgery or not. I said “I can bike, hike and do just about anything except run or a deep squat. I don’t want surgery”. The MD, who is a friend, said “that’s what I was going to tell you. When you come in with no appointment, bang on my door and say I don’t care what the F–k you have planned, you’re doing my knee today- that’s when you need surgery. Until then, live with it”. I have been living with it for about eight years, and when the other knee had a similar injury I didn’t even go to the MD. I’m fine if I maintain muscle tone and avoid deep squats. Usually I don’t even think about the knees. Getting out of canoes and kayaks in deeper water avoids the deep squat position (which hurts like hell).
Dave
I read this thread and then paddled
a while in the Q-boat and glanced at the CD Kestrel on the rack and thought back to this thread…the I surfed to see what a Roy Roy 12 looks like…to me it is incredibly similar to the Kestrel…any others see this?
Bell Rob Roy
I owned a Bell Rob Roy ( 15’) for half a year and traded in due to several problems.
- It had quality control problems that Bell refused to fix.
- I was seduced by the nice wood work but got tired of trying to fit a decent backband to it.
- Bell advised me that a kneeling thwart would work with it, but after I mounted the Bell kneeling thwart, there was not enough room to fit my feet and heels under it. As a decked canoe used with just a double bladed paddle, it wasn’t better than other rec boats except that it was much lighter and prettier.
- My first Rob Roy ( Sugar Island ) made by Bart Hauthaway in the earlier 70s was a better designed decked canoe and had a proper back support/kneeling thwart. Bell should have copied his design and stretched it to 15 feet.