another opinion
Paddles only do two things; Grip the water and slip through the water. Every stroke includes both a grip and a slip component. Wings grip the water more effectively that any other paddle shape, however they slip through the water less effectively than any other shape. Very effective if the goal is to go forward as fast as possible. Efficient? Hardly.
Uh oh
The lids off the worms now. Let the fun begin.
Since it is a wing shape and it has a laminar flow as a wing does (when used correctly), I assume it provides some hydrodynamic lift. I have a very good understanding of aerodynamics for my experience building, designing and flying airplanes. But I struggle with understanding these principles and how they relate to my wing paddle.
Get ready for a bunch of opinions by people that really have no idea about what they are talking about. This one could get long. Enjoy!
i dont care
All I know is a correctly used wing produces better times and less energy used to achieve. I don’t care if there is three rabbits and troll down there doing the work. So you guys can talk about drag coefficients and catch and flow. I’m just going to paddle.
Ryan L.
impossible
– Last Updated: Apr-11-11 2:34 PM EST –
"""Very effective if the goal is to go forward as fast as possible. Efficient? Hardly. """"
It is impossible to maximize speed without also maximizing efficiency; efficiency being the fraction of effort turned into useful work.
Let me get this straight!
“Every stroke includes both a grip and a slip component. Wings grip the water more effectively that any other paddle shape, however they slip through the water less effectively than any other shape. Very effective if the goal is to go forward as fast as possible. Efficient? Hardly.”
Isn’t the goal of using a wing paddle is to go faster? And if so, isn’t it more efficient than a euro blade? Also, what do you mean by slip?
Grip and slip
– Last Updated: Apr-11-11 3:25 PM EST –
How does the paddle know whether to grip the water or let it slip? Pretty crafty if you ask me.
Actually, a paddle interacts with water via viscosity, creating complicated velocity gradients, lift and drag forces, all of which are unsteady. To simplify this to 'grip vs. slip' is reductive to the point of being meaningless. The attributes of the wing are best understood anecdotally, as was happening in the discussion above, rather than invoking pseudo-technical explanations which do little to capture the actual physics involved.
Grip and slip
The paddle doesn’t know anything. It is inanimate. The paddle does what the paddler tells it. By slipping I mean the paddle moving through the water with the least amount of drag. Efficiency is achieved when the boat moves through the water with the most highest amount of progress per units of energy expended. Speed is not a measure of efficiency.
pseudo technical
I used the words slip, grip, efficient, and effective. You used, “viscosity, complicated velocity gradients, and The attributes of the wing are best understood anecdotally” and you accuse me of being “pseudo technical”
skipped physics?
Efficiency is achieved when the boat moves through the water with the most highest amount of progress per units of energy expended. Speed is not a measure of efficiency.
A given paddler has a defined amount of energy to expend per unit time. Progress can be measured in a few different ways, distance is one of them. Distance over time is known as velocity.
Going at higher velocity at the same amount of energy expended per unit time is defined by being more efficient by your statement.
Ah well, I sure hope this helps you advance even more.
i will forgive
you for being pseudo technical but not pseudo wrong. I get what you are saying in regards to efficiency. But in this case the actual measurement of efficiency is going faster with same energy expended. Sooo… and really I don’t care why or how. Plus the onno paddle looks cool. So if I’m wrong ill still have a cool paddle. I was going to spend that much money a new paddle any way.
Ryan L.
Not my point
– Last Updated: Apr-11-11 7:03 PM EST –
My point was that the words used seem to obscure rather than increase understanding, because they do not have clear meanings. Viscosity, velocity gradient, lift and drag are all engineering terms with specific meanings in this context.
My other point is that online forums are best for anecdotal rather than truly technical discussions, for the reason just stated.
Just kidding
– Last Updated: Apr-11-11 6:44 PM EST –
"The paddle doesn't know anything. It is inanimate."
You missed my (unsuccessful, apparently) attempt at humor - my mistake.
PS: I deleted a post of mine above that spawned some personal attacks, which I wasn't happy about. There was nothing useful in what was deleted, so I thought they could go.
Thanks for helping
I do appreciate you wise men in pointing out my deficiencies, but for a moment I would ask that you would ponder two anecdotes. The first is that I have never seen a winged canoe paddle and they do indeed travel fast. The second is the efficiency of the Hobie Mirage drive. I had the opportunity of witnessing Greg Barton ( a friend of mine and the USA’s only Olympic Gold Medal winning paddler) being pulled hopelessly backwards in a tug o war with an overweight Hobie salesman in a hobie mirage drive sit on top.
Repeating something over and over doesn’t make it true, burt it can make some people believe it.
so i should
Get a mirage drive? I don’t see how this is relavent. you’re saying that a bike is more efficient than paddling. That doesn’t translate to the wing vs euro argument.
Ryan L.
trying to illustrate Slipping
I am not suggesting you get a bicycle not paddle with your feet I am only suggesting you consider how the blades work in a mirage drive.
Greg Barton on the subject
– Last Updated: Apr-11-11 6:19 PM EST –
http://www.archronicles.com/3003.htm
I can also add that you can use a conventional Euro paddle with a wing paddle stroke and increase your efficiency. See the Brent Reitz video.
can i put them
on my hands? Do the paddles work like a euro? Soooo…still not relevant. I think you are trying prove something that is not real. Are you saying that a wing is harder to pull through the water than a like euro. You may be correct but that is overcome by downsizing the blade. Or maybe you are just rejecting the idea that it makes my boat go faster. But now I’m just confused what you are really trying to say. So should I not get the wing? Are saying that a wing is not really faster?
Ryan L.
Ditto for a GP
Sorry Ryan
– Last Updated: Apr-11-11 6:55 PM EST –
I am trying as hard as I can to offer what you asked for in your original post, real life opinions. What I am saying is that any paddle provides propulsion by gripping the water. Quoting Greg Barton " it is like putting your paddle in cement and pulling your boat past it." We don't pull the paddle through the water, we place it in the water and pull the boat past it. What I am saying is that a wing grips the water better than any other blade shape, modern, traditional etc... However, the wing doesn't move through the water as easily (slip) so it the exit phase of the stroke requires more effort than other shapes. Anytime we are lifting water or creating turbulence we are wasting energy. Thats all. My intent was not to start an argument or ruffle feathers just to provide what you originally asked for opinions based on real life experience.
Cheers
Falcon
Agree. n.m.