Other disciplines
The comment about “moving the water slowly” triggered some memories.
I have an interesting article about the development of the “big blades” now commonly used in rowing. The article made a big point about the efficiency of moving a lot of water slowly instead of a little water fast. When I started rowing, we only had what were called “pencil” oars, already considered out of date- the blades were long and narrow. Every one else was using what was called “macon” blades, much shorter and wider. About the time I stopped coaching rowing, the big blades took over. Much shorter, wider, but also the oars became much shorter as well.
I have always been curious about how much of the research (which includes a very detailed analysis of lift forces) has any bearing on the use of canoe/kayak technique and paddle design. Probably not much, but the parallels are fascinating.
Now, how about this- proper canoe forward stroke technique, by marathon canoeists and even Olympic high kneel, requires the paddle to constantly drive the blade deeper during the stroke.
Seeking unmoving water!
Why arn’t there any valid studies?
With the high cost of these paddles it appears to me that someone would have done this by now, other than the manufacturer. In my former profession, I used to have to go the sanctioned short courses where we heard a lot of theories that never seemed to work as described clinically. I became a very skeptical person.
Another thing is, where do the laws of motion come in? It seems to me that any and all of the force with which a paddler pulls on a paddle is transmitted to foward motion of the boat. If this not true, I’ll never understand because I never will understand the explanations presented here. However, I won’t be surprised too much if they were proven faster.
They’re called “races” (n/m)
WOW
Thanks to the above 3 posts, very enlightening! I can’t wait to get on the water again to work some more on my forward stroke. I may need to invest in a wing in the not too distant future too! I had already been considering it but now that I know HOW they work I think I’m sold!
db
This Much I know
You can’t judge a paddle in five minutes or an hour for that matter. Okay, maybe you can but I need several hours and instruction to get a feel for what I can do with a new concept paddle
this much more i know
thanks guys for the deeper insight and thoughts on paddles. always interesting and informative.
the more i paddle, and the more i paddle with experts and pros, who do it for a living, or as a dedicated sport, i also see all kinds of technique ‘flaws’, lack of rotation, etc, all the time.
the one common thing that makes all of these people strong paddlers when it counts…
fitness and strength. arms, biceps, shoulders? you bet, strong gos very far.
I’m trying to picture a
very long wing…just think GP but from the loam out a wing, long and thin…anybody want to make one for me to play with? ONNO?
Very Long Wing
The Bracsa VIII is a unique design, longer and narrow. I’ve been using one for a little over a year now. Easy catch, and very smooth throughout the stroke. There may be better paddles though, for rough, confused water-shorter, wider blades.
A friend just did some timed runs with a flat blade Euro (Ikelos) paddle against his wing. On several runs, he actually was faster with the Euro on the downwind leg, and faster with the wing upwind. All were done in chop on a surf ski, so he’s posited that the extra comfort/stability of the Euro blade allowed him to relax more. His stroke is refined to begin with, though it was interesting to note his results.
Boat width?
What is the maximum beam for a wing to be more effective?
Based only on my own experience paddling with a wing since I switched from a euro a year ago, I believe the gain comes from the wing design moving the paddle sideways through the water, forcing a longer (diagonal to the hull) stroke.
Didn’t you try my prototype?
Not the colorful one, the all black stealth model…
JackL tried it very breifly on our way out of FBO.
Energy wasted
Lots of energy goes to creating vorticies that are shed by the paddle. With a conventional paddle, if you see an aerated wake, cavitation, vortices, etc., that’s all energy that’s heating up the water but not moving you forward. Start thinking about pulling the boat past the paddle instead of pulling the paddle through the water.
OK, OK, I think I’ve finally got it.
Thanks for allowing my skepticism without being rude to me.
I have used two different wings without seeing an incease in my speed. I diden’t feel comfortable with either one & apparently never got the proper stroke in spite of my efforts to do so.
Yesterday, I remembered an anagolous situation in a documetory I saw on the evoloution of power boats. When the first screw propeller built it was shaped like a wood screw. During the first test run, the boat had an accident in which half of the prop was broken off. On the trip back to the dock, the boat could actually go faster.
It’s still all about fluid dynamics
In that sense, the only difference between water and air is that air is less dense. The same laws apply to both.
A GP IS a long wing paddle
In fact, one could reasonably argue that it is the ORIGINAL wing paddle. The canted stroke used with a GP takes advantage of its airfoil profile to produce lift in addition to drag, just as modern wing paddles do. It's not quite as efficient, but a GP can also be used with modern wing paddle technique and the difference in feel is quite noticeable. I don't know of any studies comparing the two, but I would bet that combining a GP with wing technique would reduce the ~6% advantage that wings have by a point or two.
There are some significant differences, primarily in versatility. A GP works with a variety of techniques and at any angle. It's more forgiving of less than optimum technique. It's easier on the joints when used with standard GP technique. It's less affect by wind. It's better for rolling, bracing and other strokes.
A wing paddle is like a scalpel; a GP is like a Swiss Army knife. You get much of the benefit of the single-purpose tool with dramatically more versatility.
Knitting project
First, an apology to Pat/onnopaddle. I have amended an earlier (poorly) worded post to hopefully reflect my intent.
Now, how about an attempt to sum things up?
- wing paddles are not nearly as limited in use as many have supposed.
2)Simply buying a wing may not significanly improve your own paddling. First ask, what kind of paddling do I do? But, if you have access to a wing, and can spend time to learn how to use it correctly (and understand the principles), there may be some interesting outcomes-
A) you may become interested in another facet of the world of paddlesport
B) you might change or modify your goals as regards kayak touring.
C) you may decide it is not for you and your needs, but you might have a better understanding of how any paddle can be manipulated towards a performance goal.
3)The comment by paddlemore re: Lawry, and my comment re: why I do not experience paddle flutter, was answered in a simple and perhaps overlooked post by Pat/onnopaddle. Re-read his first post!
4)Not to be nasty (really, I am laughing about what I am about to write), but all of this could be so much paddle shaft wanking. Unless, on your next paddle, you are willing to challenge your own concepts, and try something new.
A coach friend uses this phrase often-“If you keep doing what you’ve always done, you will always get what you’ve always got”
karl
as always great words of wisdom
from otterslide and onnopaddle.
boat
You should’ve mentioned that wing paddle comes with a boat. You could paddle any boat with the wing paddle, but some are better suited than others.
Say, Valley Pintail vs Valley Rapier 
Wing Paddle a Superior Tool
Wing paddles are a superior tool (way sperior tool) but not a miracle one!
Wing paddles as well as kayaks are simple tools to allow the paddler/athlete to move on the water. They are useless without the trained paddler who can used and take advantage of them.
One won't paddle any faster only by charging $500 in ones' credit card and getting an overnight mailed wing paddle. If fact, it is my believe that an untrained paddler could even paddle slower with a wing paddle due to poor technique. If proper or at least quasi-proper technique is not applied, it is useless.
Above all, the wing paddle allows the paddler/athlete, who works or have already worked developing/improving his/her technique, to apply a more efficient, powerful, and sound form.
Therefore, in my most humble opinion any one thinking in getting a wing and/or any other of these tools *to paddle faster* should be also start thinking in spending some time learning to how to properly use it. In fact, puzzlezed me, the "commom" mentality that "gear" make one safer and "boats and paddles" make one faster.
Just my two cents
From someone that wold ruther not paddle if he has to use something else than a wing paddle :D
Greyak…no, regret that I didn’t
and I just ordered a wing, the el-cheapo heavy model…Speedwing something to play with in the Jet…what are the chances of you making a carbon version???
Working on it…
… but for Jet, K1, ski, etc - the regular wings will serve you well and teach you right.
My hybrid’s designed to work with wing stroke (and a hybrid kayak I’ll build someday), but is a bit easier and less demanding - and allows some other stroke options too. Doesn’t have GP level versatility, but makes up for it in other ways.
My GP is faster than my euros, my Aleut faster than that (despite the narrower and shorter blade), the hybrid faster still. A good regular wing is likely a bit faster yet, but I’m not good/comfortable enough with one - or in a kayak really able to tap one (no rudder) - to quantify that. Paddler always has more impact than paddle.
I think it, or a version of it, might make a good spare for the rougher water/longer distance ski paddlers who currently rarely carry a spare. Wings suck for stowing on deck - and racers hate using anything else. These would offer a wing type stroke, stow flat on aft deck, no fumbling to assemble in dicey conditions, offer good buoyancy, and work well when flipped over the other way for swimming with paddle (another thing that pretty much sucks with a wing).
I’m actually laying up some test molds tomorrow, and hope to try some test parts later this week. These are a bit tricky shapes and my current setup/location really limits what I can do as far as materials and space goes. If things work at this level, I’ll still need to redo it all with different methods at some point.