Technically, paddling in the direction of the a tidal flow is paddling “down” or “up” hill, since the gravitational pull of the moon (and I believe to a lesser extent, the sun). To beat the dead horse, all of that is factored into my data and doesn’t have to be included, because 1/2 the trip I recorded is into the conditions and half is against it. That location is on published charts. The Gunpowder River side also has a constant outflow. 1/2 with and half against. I appreciate calm days; tidal influence is always present. Always, and it never offers an advantage that I see, unless I go to the open bay on a falling tide and return on a incoming tide. Most of the trips across the bay are cross current except for 5 miles in the beginning of ax21.5 mile round trip. Sorry, this seems so petty and insignificant. In the future, I’ll make sure speed data is only shared on side channels with a few who actually find any interest in the topic.
Well it may not be “my business” but I feel a duty to speak up here. Jyak and I have corresponded for about 3 years now, on this site, in private e-mails and on the phone. I have taken seriously all he’s told me and at first I thought it may be exaggerated some but now with the time behind me and having tried what he told me to try I will say out loud I believe what he says.
In my experience he’d been right about what he told me every time. In a few cases I brought a few details to his attention that I hope added to the “pot of knowledge” but at no time have I found his conclusions to be totally wrong or his integrity to be something I would question.
If someone tells me that they did X and it gave them Y results and I go out and try it and find the same thing I conclude that up to that point, the opinion is based in facts and truth.
Is it the “whole truth”?
Maybe not ------------ because I don’t think anyone knows everything.
But what I do know and what I have seen occasionally is others read the post and seem offended buy what they perceive to be bragging when in fact it may be nothing more then what’s true. Such remarks are always from people that somehow feel threatened. Why they feel that way makes me stand in wonder------- but they do.
A wise man told me when I was a teenager “If you can do what you say you can do you ain’t bragging. You are simply reporting”.
Steve, you are the fastest distance guy that “I” know. I couldn’t stick with you unless you waited for me. The conditions you face are not suitable for me or my boat. The amazing thing is how you can do it with either a homemade Greenland or a dime store aluminum shaft paddle. It isn’t the equipment, it’s the man. I don’t believe I offered you advice as much as validated what you had already figured out on your own and we started corresponding when you had less than a season under your belt. I learned as much about the Kalliste from you as I had already figured out.
My data is there to be used or scoffed at. It’s all the same to me. I was pleased to hear that you validated much of our theoretical ideas by talking with Paulo. Going out to paddle with Craig. I know he can out paddle me in a sprint. We plan to compare notes on distance paddling. It is what it is. I wish I still had my shoulder to use and the stamina I had when I was 60. I might have stood a chance back then.
I would not bet I could outdistance you John.
I pushed myself a few times this year already and quite a lot last year. I felt some pain in my worn-out shoulder joints so I have decided that I am going to go no faster my limit where I no longer feel any pain the next day.
I did learn that I could go a lot faster then I ever thought I could buy pushing the limit, feeling a little bit more pressure on the paddle on every stroke and speeding up the cadence until I am maxed out, and with no way to accurately measure the speed I just guess the best I can using a clock on the phone and a map with a set of dividers. What I have shown myself is that I can go fast if I need to, but most time I just like going slower.
If I go about 3.75 MPH all day I can do that for several days in a row and have no pain at all. But if I get the bow of my kayak to climb up for about 5 minutes I feel an ache or poking pain that night of the following day. It’s not worth the chance of doing harm, and at 68 years old I know I will not heal up as fast or as well as I did when I was a young man.
And learning what Paulo showed me on using the paddle by rotation of the body (like a horizontal butt stroke) I can get a lot of power. So much that doing them in reverse to effect a very tight turn it can break the paddle. (2 of them )
So I think I have gone past a point of diminishing return and pushing that hard is not helping me at all, and I think I am pushing my luck, risking harm to myself.
So for this year I think I’ll be satisfied with going 4MPH or slower. I’ll sprint if there is some danger I need to attend to, but unless there is, I am happy with 3.75MPH. Last year Thor and I did 5 days on Flaming Gorge and I never tried to sprint at all. We averaged about 25 to 27 miles a day. At the end of those 5 days I was as good as the 1st day and had no pain at all, so it seems most practical to keep the speed at a harmless level.
But I thank you VERY much for the coaching and the encouragement. I did as you suggested and I found you were right. And as icing on the cake I have found that keeping things at my average cruising speed the Kalliste is a super nice paddle to use and gets me to speed and keeps me there with ease. At 4MPH and less I have no problem with that flutter and the hiss sound is not there. So I think I’ll just go 3.75 to 4MPH for the most part and be happy when nothing hurts.
Unihibited speed means nothing to me. I wouldn’t post it even if I knew because I don’t paddles in that type of environment. All of my speed data is recorded under real-world conditions. Wind, tide, current and waves are already factored in.
Build speed gradually.
What’s to factor in if your just measuring your speed?
Your account for current and wind how?
I guess I don’t. It depends on understanding when your effort reaches 60%. You will know based on breathing effort or some use a heart rate monitor. The key is keeping up a consistent paddling schedule of at least once a week. If you do that, you will see a trend in your progress from trip to trip. My ratebof improvement is about .05 to .15 mph increase per trip. The exactness of the speed isn’t as important as the consistency.
When I enlarge and analyze the results, the app can draw a line through the graph to show when and where I was above or below the average speed. I can show you maximum speeds as well as when the speed spikes (surfing with a wave assist while paddling will ultimately result in speed degrading almost equally in the trough, but I’m sure that depends on the wave height/intervals and boat length. I know that the speed is more consistent with a longer boat, but the length probably keeps the boat from wallowing in the trough. I haven’t graphed it, because the 175 Tsunami hasn’t been out since I started using the phone app. However, I see the results on the GPS. Regardless of accuracy, the relative accuracy is consistent. My devices have different refresh or interval rates. The app is at one second, so it misses peaks. Typically maximum spikes are reported in the 5.6 to 5.8 range, while the Garmin GPS will record when I see the real time spike. I haven’t been able to get the 145 Tsunami up to speed the way I could years ago. My best speed on a wave was around 7 mph, but the 175 Tsunami could hit 8 mph. I attribute that to being able to bridge the peaks longer. The main drawback of the Tsunami design is that it becomes very unstable and squirrelly as the speed increases. The difference between a standard seat setup for a 145 Tsunami is a stable wave ride at 6.4 mph vs total uncontrolability in the same boat with the seat cradle moved 42 mm to the rear. Control was so erratic, all I could do is let it bleed off speed in a consistent fish hook turn. I could learn techniques to remain stable, but my focus is elsewhere at present.
You can see the tendency along the whole right outbound leg. That day was again S 10 - 15 mph, gusting to 25 mph. All I can say is that trips where I record 25 mph gusts have greater impact on my speed avg than a day with 20 mph gusts. In addition to recording conditions at several points around the bay, i also record features, such as white caps, cat paw ripples and the presence of foam that becones oriented in parallel lines about 20 feet apart that aligns with wind direction. I only see them when wind speeds are over a certain level. How the boat behaves is also significant, because it reflects wave height as well as intervals. When the bow flies off the tip of a wave peak and plunges, it ends up spraying over my head and sheeting water into the cockpit. Backing off by one mph stops that. I mentioned that in the tread
I could regularly hit 6.4 mph on a wave (not possible to paddle that fast without a wave assist in a 14.5 ft boat with a hull speed of 5.8 mph; I could sustain 6 mph for a short distance years ago, but that isn’t average speed). Arguing hull speed is fruitless. Boats have different shapes, tracking, hull forms, and widths. Regardless, the hull speed equation simply stated is that as it reaches a theoretical point, an incremental increase in speed requires an exponential increase in power. There’s a sweet spot that each person can reach - a balance between physical condition and boat shape. My ability at present in relatively neutral water is about 4.5 mph, while remaining aerobic. Twelve years ago, I could paddle at 6 mph for 1/3rd measured mile. Now, I’m lucky to hit that speed riding a wave. I know what effort I need to stay on glide going into conditions with conditions, or contrary to conditions (that’s the flat point across the peninsula of Battery Point. That’s were either a North or South wind is from the side, and the paddling effort is perpendicular, therefore neutral as far as tides are concerned. When thevtide is low and I cross that shallow section, I can paddle cliser to the shore or to deeper water to measure the influence of shallows on speed (measure the depth by seing how much of my 18 inch paddle blade submerges before touching bottom. That .25 mile segment across the tip is the closest thing I have to neutral. How fast I can sustain speed across that point is my control. Depending on the phases of the tide, i can see if I can match the speed at the beginning of the trip and the end of the trip. Although I was much faster years ago, the scrutiny over repeat trips has resulted in more consistent averages. Rather than getting 3.6 mph avg on one trip, 4.9 on another and 4.3 on the next, my avg speed remain within .2 or .3 mph for all trips. Although I was capable of higher speeds before, I was never as consistent. The further I got into the season, the higher my avg speed over the same course. The run between Dundee Creek marina and Fairlee Creek is about 4.99 mph. It really didnt matter if I was going into a tide or against it, because it typically reversed anyway. Regardless of conditions, what mattered most, year after year, was my level of conditioning that improved over the season. The way to overcome conditions isn’t to simplybpower through to keep your avg speed up. It’s more effective to take a hit and let your mph avg drop as indicated on the GPS and make it up on the return trip while assisted by the conditions. Due to my detailed scrutiny, I can predict my avg speed after padding a quarter mile. I first paddle until I start feeling aneorobic, the back off, and figure I’ll paddle .2 mph under my target for 2 miles to warm up. About 1/4 mile from the first turn at the point, I feel that I can push harder and try to go a few tenths over my target speed, then back off if I go out of my aerobic zone. Turn the corner, paddle neutral to see if I can hit my target speed. Stop when I reach a tree mid way, drink water, and see if I can again reach target speed, then manipulate strategy. Drop by .1 or .2 mph means I have to make it up on the trip back. On the last 1/4 leg, I go full aneorobic for 2 miles. If my speed spikes, I was successful in managing my energy. If I bonk, I pushed harder than I had intended, and I can limp safely into the landing, but at least I activated different muscle groups and will notice a .1 mph increase in avg speed.
Pure speed means nothing to me. I will never post a speed threshold without a caveat, such as being happy to break my previous max speed. Obviously, that means it was only possible riding a current or wave. Exceeding an 8 mph max speed has more to do with improving my boat handling skills than speed, because the Tsunami isn’t one of Sing’s surf boats, but I only dabble in surfing. That isn’t where my interest is focused. This season, I intend to explore. I don’t have the technical skills that many forum members possess, but I understand how to manage my energy reserves. I leave speed up to Craig and Steve. What matters is progressive improvement.
Pain is temporary, and I managed to isolate my shoulders through isometric tension using the paddler box to avoid the arthritis handicap. I’m not suggesting my approach makes sense, or that it’s the ideal thing to do. Its just how I do it. I hope somebody can adapt at least one tip from my effort.
The best trick to estimate wind, is go out on a flat lake and find your paddle speed on a calm windless day and over a given distance for what you expect to paddle.
Unless you’re heavily bearded (Like I was up until recently.) measure your speed and the felt wind on your face, you now know what 5mph feels like (if thats your average speed.)
Now if you are paddling down wind and the wind is say 3mph it’ll feel much less than your paddling trip. If you’re heading into the wind well it’ll feel almost double.
After you do it enough you can easily guesstimate what the wind speed is. Is it accurate for precision long distance shooting, no, but for paddling yes.
Eventually if you clock data, you’ll be able to figure out the wind speed based on your nominal “calm” speeds and will know how it affects you.
I’m not a big enough sail, for wind to really affect me heading directly into or with the wind. and over the years of collecting data up to about 20mph it’s only a ± .1 mph. and really isnt a factor until about 25-30 mph.
Same goes for wind at around 90 deg to the direction I’m paddling it again really doesn’t seem to matter for me. Where wind fouls me is in the 45 deg quadrants, either from aft or fore, this wants to weathercock the boat and either requires rudder, which is a net .5 mph drag on the boat. or corrective paddle strokes which are tiring, and hamper me by about .3 mph.
Current is fairly easy. if on a river, the bigger ones will have a buoy and you can just look at he flow past it. and again if you paid attention paddling on a calm windless lake you know how fast you are going and how fast you pass leaves, bugs and what not. you can use this knowlege to guesstimate river speed. if you also know where to look, like for the Susquehanna river they will post River speed measurements for the section of the river your paddling on some places will also give you the CFM rating.
Eventually it all comes down to paying attention to what you are doing Every time I go out I pay attention to the conditions and log it, Run my GPS and log it, and are mapping my O2 usage and heart rate. as well ad my Aerobic and Anaerobic efficiency. That all goes into a log Wind/Temp/waves if any/etc along with my speed plots, overlaid with all the biometric data. At the end of the Day you wind up with a DB that you can correlate all the variables.
granted you probably don’t do, I do because I race, and well am damn sick of 3rd in the Touring Kayak class, Geriatric division. So all that data goes to show where I need to kick things up a notch and begin to make my sprint for the end. Now I’ve been doing this for 40+ years so Ive got a pretty good seat of the pants Dyno going on mostly because I’ve paid attention to everything.
I find your comparison to using a rudder vs corrective strokes interesting. With my Necky Arluk 1.9 I find that using a rudder vs corrective strokes with a stern quartering wind results in up to a 0.5 mph gain in speed as measured by a GPS.
A strong stern quartering wind over long distances is the only time I use the rudder. The boat handles well enough without it in other conditions.
Wind I can use my kestrel meter.
Everything else is a guess.
@rstevens15 up to about 20mph wind it really doesn’t seem to matter, but beyond in quartering wind ti seems to cause problems. and requires use of rudder.
and of course rudders to be sure are all different, different profiles, thinknesses, and materials. I’ve seen a few that seem to have a better design than the factory wilderness ones, and a few that were super thin made of aluminum.
So comparing rudder drag across boats is an apples to oranges comparison.
Personally I wonder if I could put an aluminum one on in place of my clunky factory one.
You can see my start that gradually declines to a 60% cruise. The arrow shows when Imstopped tobdrop the rudder. An in an immediate boost in speed, but look at what happened. It isn’t what happens when you drop the rudder, butbwhat happens when yousustain the anerobic boost. You settle into the aerobic mode. Perception is not reality.
You feel an immediate speed boost, but it wears out and speed drop below your average. Drag is drag. I could tell you how much, but you probably wouldn’t believe me. I don’t disagree with Craig
I also found that a 145 Tsunami with a.rudder can track straighter by edging than a 175 Tsunami with a rudder, but that’s an opinion.
I cant comment on the 145, vs 175, since your 145 is the older style hull shape and I haven’t taken my son’s 145 out yet so I have no benchmark data on it regarding.
When you have conditions that will have you deciding to edge and use corrective strokes or use a rudder or skeg, the conditions alone will usually result in a decrease of speed for the same effort. A kayak is most efficient when traveling straight with no wind or waves impeding you.
The question is which decreases speed more, over say a 5 mile course. This is difficult to measure as effort is ordinarily subjective.
@Craig_S, in flat water, the 175 is about .3 mph faster. The real difference is noticed as wind increases. The 175 has an definite edge in wind over 20 mph. It bridges waves better and doesn’t fall into the trough as a wave passes. Speed with the rudder deployed is hard to assess because unlike the 145, the 175 is hard to control without a rudder. The 175 is at least 1 mph faster under the same conditions going with the waves, and at least .5 mph faster going into the waves.
@rstevens15, I watch the speedometer during turns and don’t see a speed difference, whether using the rudder, when edging or by using a sweep stroke. I do acknowledge watching the speed and making an effort to keep the speed constant. I will agree that paddling effort may increases during the turn, but in the few seconds it takes to turn, any adfitional effort is insignificant. What matters to me is whether I remain in an aerobic zone. You surely realize with your time on the Chesaleake Bay, that aintaining speed in open tidal water is a constant effort. Whether paddling with, against or parallel to conditions.
I’m amazed by how hard it is to discuss kayak performance, paddle technique, and the impact wind, current, tide and waves has on on average trip speed, even when I post pictures of a wishbone shaped course, where two legs are going against prevailing conditions and two legs are with conditions. Invariably, somebody wakes up and joins the middle of a discussion and has an epiphany: speed depends on tides, winds, waves and current. Being that far behind the information curve should be embarrasing.
Speed on open tidal water is never a constant without effort. Yet when I post a trip that demonstrates a virtual flat graph going into a 10 to 15 mph wind with a constant tide (falling or rising is irrelevant since 1/2 of the trip is either with or against condions). The discussion never focuses on how do you manage to keep a relatively constant speed. The discussion turns to you a dissertation on why a GPS is not dependable, or it depends on tide, wind, current or waves. How can so many people not understand that moving trip average already factors all of those parameters. I’m perplexed.
@Andy_Szymczak, the 6.6 mph GPS reading has no description to put it in context to conditions.
You need no wind, no current, flat water to determine the true speed of a hull to compare it to others.
Edging, turning, and using your rudder doesn’t affect your speed? Nice work!
I was on a river shortly after a hurricane came through. Going downstream. Took me two hours to paddle against the current. When I turned around took me 1/2 hour to get back.
What is the point of finding a place to paddle with no wind, current, tide, or waves, if that isn’t the environment where you paddle.