A GPS shatters that idea, whether you agree or not. Watch a leaf, it doesn’t go against the current. This seems like an elementary discussion. You made your point!
So an object floating on the water is not affected by anything except the current?
You’re doing great.
I know. Have an answer yet or still thinking?
I’ve actually answered those questions. Go back and review my posts. We apparently have had dissimilar exerience while kayaking and interpret data differently.
Wind you have no way of knowing the affect of wind in you kayak or exact direction of currents many times.
A device that measure time over distance from a satalite in low orbit over the earth is not effected at all by winds or currents on the earth’s surface.
Why is that hard to understand?
Now I understand why we disagree so much. First, I can typically predict within the first 1/4 quarter mile what my average speed will be for the trip. I can show you a graph comparing the effect of the same wind speed and direction with an outgoing tide and a trip with incoming tides, and decribe the effect on waves. I can tell you how fast the wave is moving based on how long I can ride it. When wind velocity remains high from the same direction overnight, the effect on waves will be significant. It usually doesn’t change my average speed in the 175 boat, which is presently 4.5 mph. The same conditions will consistently drop the 145 Tsunsmi average speed to 3.8 mph.
There are many ways to judge the wind, especially if you paddle the same course repeatedly under different conditions. When wind speeds around here reach a certain point to create white caps, the foam bubbles align in rows about 20 feet apart. The more frequent the white caps, the more bubbles form, the wider and more numerous the bubbles. They align in the direction of the wind. You can tell by turning your face until you feel the full force front on, rather than on your left or right ear. If you feel the wind in your face and turn your boat so the wind is at your back, simply paddle until you no longer feel the wind and look at your speed. I won’t venture to guess the height of these waves, but it’s mild enough for my 12 year old grandaughter. I don’t take her in open water when there is a Small Craft Advisory issued. That day was not an advisory day, and it was sheltered water between Hart-Miller Island
The above book is an excellent source of info on current, wind, tides, waves. I found through experimentation that the info is reliable and accurate. It explains the Beuafort Scale, estimating distance base on curvature of the earth, the speed at which wind is first detected on your skin, the effect of shallow water on boat speed. I shared such info in respobse to questions, but it’s typically dismissed as inaccurate. I now keep it to myself, but I do not have to agree with you.
The two charts show a good day with moderate winds of 10 to 15 mph and the other graph with the 3.8 mph average was in the 15 mph range with gusts to 25 mph. The boat was a 145 tsunami, and on that trip, I had to slow to 3.2 mph to keep waves from washing over the deck. In the 175, I can power through them and sustain 4.1 mph. I’m not talking about maximum speeds of the boat or cruising speeds. My interest is how to manage my energy so I don’t get into a situation where conditions change after three hours and the trip back could become an 8 hour ordeal - I couldn’t handle that.
You challenge topics that are transparent to me. I have no issue with you disagreeing. I simply tested and accepted that many of the topics that you dismiss as inaccurate are actually valid. Your distrust of the GPS is one topic. You have years of exlerience. Rather than dismissing things as false, try to verify them instead.
@Onski326, if you go to the PFD thread, I posted 3 graphs showing the effect wind, current, tide and waves have on speeds. Same course, winds SW 10 - 15 mph, gusts 20 mph; one was N 10-15 mph, gusts 20 mph; another was SW 10- 15 knots, gusts to 30 knots; and tides varied. You can see the impact, but today’s trip puts conditions in perspective. Winds SW 0 - 4 mph, increasing to 4 - 8 mph, and the end was a steady 10 mph. It shouldn’t be hard to see the difference and be able to match conditions to the trips.
Based on our conversations, your physical condition, similar paddles, and the 170 Tempest compared to the 175 Tsunami, you should be able to improve you speeds and consistency by focusing on efficiency and technique. The flattest section of the graphs show greatest consentration on form and high cadence.
![Screenshot_20240625_115758_Geo Tracker|690x352]0 (upload://p6GMquN6vOU1Gx9ylGU2qO91VWw.jpeg)
The red tick mark is where I deployed the rudder because the 10 mph wind made weathercocking an issue.
The chart below is from Sunday, winds SW 10 - 15 knot, gusting to 30 knots, then wind veering to the west. Notice spikes that decline to a plateau, then spike again and decline. That is from pushing beyond the aerobic zone. Its far better to settle in, and stay a few tenths of a mph above/below the average speed that you settle on. I measure my effort by how much anaerobic capacity I have left at the end by seeing if I can spike above the average speed or struggle to finish.
Keep looking for minor improvement on each trip out.
@Onski326 having both the Tempest 170 and a Tsunami 175 you should be able to max out under ideal conditions, at around 5.7 mph, and from what Jyak has said you’re in much better paddling shape than I am. So you should be able to pull this off.
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@Onski326, Craig is just depressed over physical setbacks, but I agree with him. You’re off to a good start and are far more tuned than you realize. He is a strong sprinter with a very polished high angle feathered paddle technique. You adapted a paddle length and style similar to my preference. It’s more suited for endurance. Several things stand out in my graphs after comparing notes with Craig. Ill send them to you.
@Jyak its certainly been a long row to hoe, to get back to my 2019/2020 shape. speaking of how is this week looking to get out on the Elk?
@Onski326, Jyak posts all his numbers in big water. so he’s got more wind and waves than I usually do. I generally blueprint my performance on flat water under ideal conditions, to eliminate waves wind and current as contributing factors so I can focus in on my performance. I know wind and waves and current can help or hinder, I cut my teeth in the white water on the Ocoee so surfing is right in my wheelhouse so If I can get a following wind and kicked up surf I can get the boat easily beyond hull speed with little effort. Personally on the 15 miler I did I had 8 or so that I was able to surf which super negated the effects of running against the river current makes me wish I had my GPS back then. Based on my time alone I was in the vicinity of 5 mph average over the whole 15 miles. .
Cardio, and upper body strength training will get you there. The Tempest 170 is a fast boat, it doesn’t feel fast when you’re paddling but it’s fast and has a better glide than the Tsunami. I think performance wise they both wash since the Tempest has a might less drag, but the Tsunami has a might longer keel line. and from what I’ve seen blueprinting both boats, on the same day under the same conditions (and with me bing tired by the time I got in the tempest.) my speeds were only off by .1 mph from the Tsunami.
I need to duplicate this test now the other way around. To know for sure.
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Give me a time. No plans other than Wednesday and Friday will be making doors. Im getting accustomed to the 175. I will definitely go out tomorrow, early. Winds forcasted as E 5-10 mph, 88°. Might be able to do it without a rudder.
The more I carry it, the lighter it feels. Still knocking things over when I turn around with it in the kitchen and can only get half of it in the bathroom.
Got out today, and I’ll let the group guess what boat I was in.
The only hint will be I was not prepping for a race, so neither the tempest, or the tsunami, but definitivelya WS systems boat.
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You were in the 10 ft footer. Flat speed chart with a little spike flourish at the end. Low heart rate. You weren’t even trying.
@Jyak that 10 footer is like pushing a brick at that speed. it sounds fast but isn’t but as a fishing platform it excels.
between 6pm to 8pm I went from fishing to catching. every cast was a fish. unfortunately nothing over 8" so I couldn’t keep (lake has a minimum 15") but paddling it between my favorite spots was a workout.
It also informed me what caused the bad numbers on the Tempest 180, I was using the Accent Air, which is a smaller surface area that my Aqua-bound Whiskey. I confused it with my Accent Kuiai.
I had the Kuiai for this trip with the Aspire, and could have gone all day pushing it at 4 mph with that paddle so I may rebench the 180 with the right paddle this time swing weight be damned.
Pungo?
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I know. I paddled a 9 footer. The Aspire has a 4.9 mph hull speed, and the stern will bury under water.
The Whiskey is spec’d at 5 oz lighter and only 3 sq inches less than the Kuiai. The air is only 86.5. That’s the size of the Little Dipper, and I can’t even het the kids to use it. I can loan you my Kalliste 240 cm. It’s long, but it has a slightly larger blade at 99.7. The Camano is 100.7 sq in. I think you said the Ikelos was too large.
The Kuiai is no longer made, but I have the specs from Accent, on it 652 sqcm, the Whiskey is 613 sqcm, the Air which is still made is 558 sqcm.
With the aspire I didn’t notice the ass end getting buried at full thrust had no issues that way, perhaps it’s because you are taller than I so your CG is a tad higher.
@szihn no an Aspire 105. Technically I shouldnt be able to push it that fast as it’s hull speed is about 4.8 mph and it’s quite a wide boat, at 29 inches, it tends to plow the water at above 3.5/3.8 mph and it’s glide is non existent. as example was at my Max speed, which on one of the runs to a fishing spot when I stopped to check the speed on my GPS (all of a second.) dropped immediately to 3.8 mph, all within the breath of the time it take to make two paddle strokes.
so it’s a great Fishing boat, and great for kicking about lazy paddling and river sojourning and good for working out for building speed in the bigger touring boats. Get your stroke wrong it wants to pivot requiring a correction stroke robbing you of speed and to maintain a flatline speed track on the GPS it requires constant paddle input. all in all trying to go above 3.8 is a workout in it.
Give me a time. No plans other than Wednesday and Friday will be making doors. Im getting accustomed to the 175. I will definitely go out tomorrow, early. Winds forcasted as E 5-10 mph
Let’s think about say Sat or maybe Sun whichever day will be the best according to the weather.
Now the question is morning or late afternoon, Morning we may have more wind, and usually late afternoon things tend to die down.
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