I re-read your post
"Creek boats are dogs on ordinary rivers." Okay, but river-running creek boats are better? Not trying to be argumentative here, just trying to understand and make a good decision. Can you elaborate? Thanks.
I have a Redline
It was the second boat I owned (a Dagger Animas was the first). I remember going down the Pestigo (in Wisconsin) in the Redline when I was tired and hadn’t had it for very long. I flipped several times and finally just got off the river and walked a long way home. I felt a little like you say you did. All of the Dagger boats of that era (RPM, Animas, Piedra, Redline) have the same fault. They have unbalanced volume with too little volume in the stern. This means they stern squirt when you don’t want them too (like when you try to punch a hole) and catch their stern edges when you lean back while you are paddling. You can learn to deal with it. In the case of the Redline you simply lean forward all the time. But the fact remains, the Redline is a lousy boat and not a good boat for beginners. Modern boats are not at all like the Redline. They have better volume distribution, edges are high on the boat, they are more controllable, and less likely to flip. When I bought my Booster 55 and sent the Redline out to pasture it was like a big relief. So don’t judge other WW boats by a bad relic from the past.
Design of creek boats
True creek boats are designed to deal with the dangers and requirements of steep creeks. The design assumes fast water and serious gradient. They have to surface fast when submerged, not get easily pinned on rocks, stay higher up on the water and still be very controllable. You will find that these characteristics are not needed on class II or III WW and in fact make it harder to paddle. The river running creek boats are something of a compromise. They attempt to use the positive features of true creekboats and add user friendliness. So you will find, for example, that they are very buoyant (like a creekboat) which makes it easier to deal with holes. But you will also find that about the only playing you can do is surfing waves. As your skills and confidence increase you will find that irritating. If you do much paddling in the Pirouette you will find that you get pushed around by the river a lot more than you will in a good planing hulled river runner. Ferries are harder, turning is harder, and actually it is tippier (assuming you don’t lean back).
Windowshading
Is getting stuck in a hole and being flipped. Over and over and over and over and over. Longer whitewater kayaks are more prone to it than shorter playboats. Operator error has lots to do with it also.
Take a look at the Jackson Hero.
I haven’t demo’d one yet (I would need the Superhero), but it is one of the few semi-planers which might please both Dr Disco and me. It has plenty of stern, plenty of volume, reasonable speed, and appears to be a forgiving boat. Eric Jackson is one of the dominant competition playboaters, and used to be an extremely good slalom racer.
Here you go …
http://www.necky.com/jive.htm
For other models…
Goto the necky webpage
Goto pull down menu for “Boats”
Goto button for “Retired Models”
Several other good boats to check out if you find a used one.
re: window shading
We also use window shading to describe the instantaneous flip that occurs when fast water hits the flat side of a hard chined boat. The first time it happened to me in my Wavesport Score I remember thinking that there must be a piece of polished metal under the water because the reflection of the sun and sky was so strong around the bow of the boat. Then I felt a lot of back pressure on the high end of my paddle, I realized I was upside down- still bracing like mad.
Another nifty feature of all the creek boats we have (I’m including the Chopper) is an adjustable bulkhead as a footrest. It is not a real bulkhead in that it is not waterproof, but it is a large flat surface that supports both your feet. They are held in place by large plastic covered nuts and metal struts with holes at regular intervals (about 1 inch). Although not convenient I have adjusted someone’s on the water (It is easier to tighten or loosen the backband).
It turns out that jumping off a 4 foot cut-bank is almost the same maneuver as going over a 4 foot drop on a steep creek. You just lunge forward and standup with part of your weight on the footrest.
I don’t know enough about hull design to understand the difference between a pure creeker and a river running creeker, but the bottoms of the Chopper, Creeker, Nomad and Java are all very similar. They have large broad flat bottoms with smoothly round chines that narrow gradually and gracefully at the bow and stern. This contrasts greatly with the play boats we have that are hard chined (almost vertical sides) flat bottoms that carry the beam almost to the very ends. This is also different than the older Dagger Gradient ( a creek boat) we have, it has a rounded bottom that is quite pronounced.
Why Prijon defines the Chopper as a displacement hull and the Creeker as semi-planing is beyond me. I have them both here upside down and they look very similar.
Jackson Hero
Saw that at a recent demo days event and liked it except for it does have a “line” (??) whereas the Rocker is smooth and rounded. Just figured rounded was going to be more forgiving. What’s the line for on the Hero and will it give me trouble? Know what I mean about the line? I don’t know the correct terminology.
Donna, pay no attention…
…to g2d.
He’s a friend of mine and therefore of low character.
Besides he mostly flails around in an OC, and he’s easy to recognize on the river: he’s about
6’ 14" and the rug burns from dragging his
knuckles are easy to spot.
Imagine a bald King Kong in a bathtub.
Another thing I’d like to add about creekers vs
river runners is that while river runners are
more maneuverable I’ve found that my Prijon
Rocket, the quintessential definition of “Old
school,” doesn’t need to be as maneuverable.
It will punch through things that play boats cannot. It’s a blast too.
the downside is that if you don’t punch through
them, you’re well and truely screwed. You get
out of holes by side surfing to the edge, etc.
If I try to side surf my Rocket in a hole, I will
get windowshaded for several iterations. As
entertaining as this is for the people in the
eddy, after about the 3rd rotation it loses much
of its charm. 6 is my personal max in one hole.
A lot has to do with what kind of paddling you want to do. You know I have no intention of
being a playboater, despite Ron’s insistance.
If I spend more than 5 minutes in one place, I
reach for a book.
The river runners are bigger, more comfortable,
and more suited to my style.
EJ has a new DVD out
It is about river running. The very first section is about choosing a boat. He uses the categories of playboat, river running playboat, river running creek boat, and creek boat. He makes boats in all four categories and the Hero is a river running creek boat. He gives the reasons for preferring one design over another. I strongly recommend that you look at that DVD before you buy. EJ knows what he is talking about. For the record, there are 4 or 5 excellent river running creek boats out there. It has been one of the latest fads among kayak companies. Try them all if you can. And, finally, those “lines” are called edges. They are useful in controlling and maneuvering the boat and so long as they are higher up on the side of the boat they will not be a problem. EJ discusses this.
Redline
Thanks for the perspective on the Redline. I’m relieved to know someone else felt the same way about it, and that it isn’t just attributable to my lack of skills.
So at this point I’m thinking 1) Wavesport Diesel, 2) Prijon Cross 3) Jackson Hero (or SuperHero) 4) Pyranha H:3
After reading all the comments, I think a creek boat isn’t something I need, but I also think it wouldn’t be a horrible choice. Still, if the river runners are going to suit my needs and be reasonably forgiving, I guess I’ll go that way. Haven’t decided whether or not to keep the Pirouette. The decision is probably a few months off anyway. (Will hope for some good sales in the fall.)
refresh my failing memory…
– Last Updated: Jul-24-05 9:42 PM EST –
The Rockit is a creek boat with displacement hull, right?
And the Performance is a planing-hulled river runner?
Do you still paddle them both, or do you now prefer one over the other? I think I've only seen you paddle the Rockit once (the blue one, right?) and the rest of the times we've paddled together you've always been in the red Performance. Correct me if I'm wrong.
that’s pretty cool
However what about the pure “river-runner” category? I would label the Jive and the GT (and RPM) as river-runners rather than river-play or river-creek.
rroberts is balder than I am
and more off-topic to boot. Now that my knee is recovering (medial meniscus), I am doing stretching excercises and getting back into my kayaks and c-1s.
Dr. Disco has very short legs and paddles kayaks standing on the seats.
How did you know…,
that I had very short legs and paddled standing on the seat? I thought my retirement from the circus was a secret. 
You guys are too funny!
g2d, do you live around here, or does Rick know you through his many out-of-town ww adventures? (most of which I think he fabricates, or at least embellishes… I mean, has he really done Class 8 rapids?).
Dr. Disco, I was about to inform you that “the seventies are over, dude” but then while perusing ww boats realized the Disco IS a ww kayak! Now I understand.
Anyway, now (thanks to the many who have educated me here) I am leaning toward the Wavesport Diesel or the Prijon Cross. Since Rick is my idle (intentional misspelling) I might just go with the Prijon. Now just have to figure out how to FUND this!
Donna
I live in Georgia, though having put
two kids through Ohio schools (Antioch and Wooster), I have traveled through Ohio a bit. Rroberts and I met in the lockup. Oh, no, nothing like that, he was quite proper.
When people refer to "big water"
what does that mean? When I hear “big water”, I immediately think of the ocean but I’m sure it has a different meaning in the context of river running. So are we talking Class 4,5,6 or what?
Been thinking about this
all weekend. Here’s where I am:
Granted, I don’t NEED a creek boat. But as giufiume pointed out, there are some positives to having one even tho I’m never going to be running steep creeks. And I don’t see the negatives except maybe less maneuverability (or less ability to carve precise lines) and for the paddling I’ll be doing, I don’t see where that matters much. So I’m still considering the Rocker and Embudo.
Still considering the Chopper as it seems to be the closest thing to a Pirouette that you can buy new. (Long displacement hulled river runner with soft, forgiving edges.) Since much of my paddling will involve significant flat stretches between minor rapids, this seems to make sense for me.
If I do decide on a planer or semi-planer, seems like there are plenty on the used market that I could pick up for cheap if I ever want to.
Really leaning toward the Chopper, but will have to think a bit more (I have plenty of time). Thanks to everybody for the helpful input.
big water…
Big water has more to do with the volume of water (CFS) than technical difficulty. Many of the rivers out west are termed “big water” as they can run anywhere from 5000-20000+ cfs. In the midwest, although we have a few big water runs, mostly our rivers (even the class III-IV runs) are more technical in nature with more rock gardens, etc. Bigger water is more pushy and the window for making moves is smaller due to the speed of the flow. However, depending on the river, the consequences may be less due to the decreased risk of head injuries, pins, entrapments, etc. I use my river runner on more difficult runs the first time through as a measure of safety before running in my playboat so I can understand the concept of a “big water boat.”