Why …
would they be any different than us?
I think you hit the nail on the head …
“FWIW, it seems to me that feathered paddles are the single biggest contributor to difficulty in paddlers learing to brace and roll on both sides.”
I have felt the same. I stopped using feathered blades when I started paddling with a GP. My reasoning was I would always know where my brace was with an unfeathered blade. It’s helped me in surf to have an instinctive brace.
Also, I will frequently unfeather students paddles when teaching them to roll on their second side. Once they learn they can go back to feathered if they so desire.
~wetzool
Feathered
I suppose, if one rotates the paddle after it passes the hull and before it hits the water, there may be a little efficiency gained in close to the hull catch. I do not think that matters in WW though.
For sea, I started feathered just because my first paddle was 70 degree feathered and I had gotten used to it. Then I moved to 60 degree as 70 seemed a bit too much work on the wrists, plus my next paddle happened to be a fixed 60 degree feather -
At 60 or 70 there is a very clear advantage if you go against the wind (in terms of less wind resistance). But almost as clear disadvantage if going sideways to strong gusts (in terms of stability loss). Going downwind unfeathered one can claim that the up paddle blade acts as a sail and if the wind is strong, this effect should be stronger than the diminished efficiency from forward motion thru the air, so feathered downwind is actually a drawback!
Took me a couple of weeks of 1-2 times a week paddling to fully adjust to 0 feather. While it is a little more work against the wind, there are no surprise side winds that threaten flip me now -
I think if one is racing or primarily paddling up-wind, definitely go feathered. For everyone else, I do not really see the point, especially if one needs to switch b/w 0 feathered GP and some other paddle as is the case for me.
Switching 0 to 60 is not impossible but messes with bracing and rolling too much to be practical for me.
RE: Personal preference
"Many ww playboaters go with zero offset so when they’re in a bow stall (mainly flatwater)they brace equally on both sides. Also, zero degree helps with offside and offside backdeck rolls."
That makes a lot of sense. Are you sure you should be posting on paddling.net?
40 degree feather
Jim Snyder has a good write-up of why he uses a 40 degree feather:
http://rivrstyx.com/html/the_feather_rap.html
0 degree feather has always seemed most natural to me, but last weekend I paddled with a 40 degree stick and it was easy to adapt to.
No right or wrong. Just go with what works for you.
Pushing hand
– Last Updated: Feb-22-09 8:19 AM EST –
Having not really paid too much attention to this, I may be wrong.
But, if one likes their wrists "twisted" away from the predefined position on the shaft relative to the plane of the blade, can't one rotate their hands to any angle, regardless of the actual feather? With a strongly oval shaft as in his photos, that might increase the surface against the pushing hand but will not change the angle. And if you happen to have a round shaft, then the argument about feather affecting wrist angle at the push hand in any positive way seems pointless.
For the in-water trick he describes - may be there is a point. I do not know what he is describing so I will pass commenting on that. But the moves I do I either have one blade in the air (sweep roll, bracing) or both blades pushing water in a single direction (e.g butterfly roll). In the fisrt case it does not matter how the out of water blade is pointed, in the second it is better if both are aligned at 0 feather. So to me 0 is better for what I do.
Doesn’t matter and folk
will argue forever. Bnystrom once again nails the trend toward less and less feather among WW. Also have seen this with surf kayakers.
Just go paddle with whatever does it for you. If that sounds overly simplistic…it’s because it is.
If your computer in your head convinces you that somethings best for you…it’s best for you.
Dont mind f this stuff and don’t look for affirmation on forums…go paddle and paddle well and have fun.
Then permit me to make a recommendation
Don’t buy a feathered paddle.
It really, really is that simple.
- Big D
Yup
"Just go paddle with whatever does it for you. If that sounds overly simplistic…it’s because it is."
I actually do very little WW so it was my curiosity more than actual need to convince myself one way or another - I have already done so. 0 feather at present, since switching to anything else takes time to adjust for me and for sea I seem to like it well enough this way.
Bunk
Zero degree usually can lead to an ‘all arms’ paddle stroke. —I don’t think there is any proof of that at all. It’s easier to rotate with a 0 degree.
Actually feathered paddles lead to poor symmetry in stroke execution - the paddle stroke on the non-power hand tends to be less efficient.
It’s actually all about the HANDS
– Last Updated: Feb-22-09 11:04 AM EST –
With a feathered paddle, you are taught that you have a "control hand", which is typically your dominant hand. The control hand grasps the paddle shaft as you start the offside stroke. If you are rotating your torso properly, this will result in the paddle twisting and if the feather angle is correct, the off-side blade will be in the proper orientation to the water. Physical variations between paddlers will result in variations in the amount of twist imparted to the paddle, which is probably why there is so much variation in feather angle preference. Feathered technique is asymmetric, as the hands don't do the same thing on both sides. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's important to understand that fact.
An unfeathered paddle is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT animal. When paddling unfeathered you DO NOT have a control hand. Unfeathered paddling is symmetric and THIS DIFFERENCE IS KEY. Neither hand should grip the shaft during the stroke. The lower hand should hook the shaft and pull it while the relaxed upper hand simply pushes the shaft. Essentially, the blade seeks its own orientation to the water, though the lower hand does provide some minimal guidance on both sides. It's not a bad idea for the tips of the thumbs to touch the tips of the index fingers on both sides, but that's the most you want to do in terms of controlling the paddle (except in rough conditions, where more control is required with any paddle).
The reason that people who paddle feathered find an unfeathered paddle to be awkward is because they are using the same technique they do with a feathered paddle. That results in the offside blade rotating to the wrong angle for the stroke. To make the switch from feathered to unfeathered, it's necessary to "unlearn" the use of a control hand and use an open grip on both sides. When paddlers who are used to feathered paddles claim that an unfeathered paddle feels "unnatural", it's because it's not meant to work with the technique that has become "natural" to them. It has nothing to do with the paddle itself and I daresay that there is nothing more "natural" than an unfeathered paddle with its symmetric technique.
Obviously, either paddle will work well with the appropriate technique, but problems occur when you mix a paddle with the incorrect technique. IMO, the biggest difference is when you are learning to paddle, as it is considerably easier to learn paddle strokes, bracing and rolling on both sides with an unfeathered paddle as the left and right side techniques are mirror images of each other. With a feathered paddle, you have to correct for the feather angle when bracing and rolling.
you explained that well.
Right and no question about it, WW was ?
Great tips so far but to get back on topic, Specifically, I was just curious if there was anything particular about WW that would make use of feathered paddles a plus for some situations.
I’d rather not steer this into a generic “feather or not feather” discussion, though I certainly enjoy reading about it and learn something new in the process perhaps -
I can’t see why it would matter
– Last Updated: Feb-22-09 12:28 PM EST –
Let me state up front that I don't paddle whitewater on rivers, but I've been in plenty of it on the ocean. The only thing I can think of is that since a firm grip on the paddle is often necessary in WW, the tendency would be to keep at least one hand gripping it, but that could apply to either side.
I strongly suspect that the reason for the trend to less feather in WW is that by nature, WW paddlers have more of a "renegade" or "question authority" mindset than sea kayakers and are therefore more likely to try something different from the established dogma.
The reason I initially switched from feathered to unfeathered is that I spent a lot of time thinking about the pros and cons of feathering in various wind conditions and came to the conclusion that there was no real advantage to it except in a full-on headwind and even then, you really need to use a 90 degree feather to avoid problems with lifting or diving blades. Anything between 0 and 90 degrees is a compromise that can make the paddle hard to control in high winds.
It also seems to me that the general trend in paddling is away from feathered paddles, it's just taking longer in some circles than others. This is probably due to most coaches having learned to paddle feathered and due to a bias toward it on the part of the ACA and BCU. I suspect that if you were to include all casual paddlers who've never had any instruction in the mix, most people paddle unfeathered. One has to be taught to paddle feathered, it doesn't come naturally.
I obviously have a bias toward unfeathered paddles and Greenland paddles in particular, but the only thing that matters is that you choose the gear suits your needs and preferences, then learn the necessary techniques to use it effectively. In the end, it's all about having fun on the water, regardless of how you do it.
Thanks
I’ve tried - unsuccessfully - to explain this several times before, but perhaps I’ve finally gotten the wording right this time.
I wanted to know too
About 8 years ago I asked the exact same question to WW paddlers and none had a good answer back then too. One paddler told me because rivers and streams are in Valleys they have a strong wind running through them. But in my observation, WW paddlers love to go around in circles in the same area where it’s exciting.
I personally think a lot of WW is taught by paddlers who learned that way and just continue along with the skills they have learned rather than experiment to see if it’s really needed for any reason.
While I prefer unfeathered paddling…
… in the interest of fairness, I have to take issues with your statements.
The feathering advocates can make a valid argument that in order to paddle feathered CORRECTLY, you MUST rotate your torso, at least on the offside. If you don’t, the only way to align the blade with the water is to cock your wrist, which is a no-no. I guess it would be possible to rotate on the offside stroke, but not rotate on the onside, but it seems that it would be pretty unlikely that anyone would do that.
If the blade is properly aligned with the water, I can’t see any reason that there would be a difference in efficiency between onside and offside strokes with a feathered paddle. As I stated before, it’s really all about hand technique and using the proper technique for the paddle configuration.
It is possible that feathered paddles
may go totally out of style in whitewater, except in slalom where some feather is needed to clear gates. Having the upper blade blown around on open stretches of river is something that can’t be solved with any fixed degree of feather. The only other WW circumstance where my old, markedly feathered paddles might have a slight advantage would be on small whitewater creeks where the upper blade must pass through rhodedendron thickets at times. A feathered paddle might do that a little easier, but I don’t see that as much of an issue. So, it remains an unsettled issue. Some of us use markedly feathered paddles and feel fine with them. Some have gone to very low or zero feathered paddles and feel fine with them.
Who is more dogmatic…
I don’t think there is any way to say that sea kayakers or WW folks are as a body more dogmatic on this than the other. I have worked with more than one very good WW paddler who still argues the control hand thing. And I have worked with respected sea kayak coaches who have let go of the control hand bit, but if asked their opinion will associate unfeathered paddling with a variety of uncomplimentary adjectives about the paddler.
In the end, the good coaches are pragmatic. No matter how much they disagree with someone’s feather, it is a lot easier to work around a non-feathered stroke than have to fish paddlers out of the water every time they need to do an offside roll. That’s a real consideration at the level of training where capsizes are likely.
In WW, even in the flat classes, if someone shows up with their own equipment that feather is probably already locked in 'cause it’s a one piece paddle. The coach is stuck with it.
Perhaps if these same coaches get someone in a beginner flat water class with no equipment investment, they will insist on teaching with a feather. But in the classes I’m in these days, even if the coach has a strong feeling about the feather they will work with the paddler’s habits.
Well, Jay, I gave you a historically
correct and logically coherent explanation, and if you don’t understand it, I can’t help you.