WW Paddle - why feathered?

Advice
#41

In canyons the wind either travels up

– Last Updated: Feb-23-09 1:08 PM EST –

or down canyon. An offset paddle helps shed that wind. In competitions, such as slalom, a fraction of a second matters and therefore, whether you are clearing gates or reducing your "footprint" in the wind, it is a good thing. At one time I saw Greg Barton's website had a discussion of feather from an ocean racers perspective. Competition breeds a logic that spills over into the general community.

There are different games played today. Freestyle does not require the clearance of gates. I see a 30 degree feather as typical around here and the stroke rate while catching waves or holes is high, so less feather is desired to keep the stroke rate high. As far as the Inuits were concerned, I couldn't think of anything less calorically justified than to take an already wind resistant paddle and then go through the time consuming process of putting a feather on that.

Dogmaticus
edited because I can no longer see a feather discussion on www.epickayaks.com. Too bad.

#42

study
http://nocpaddlingschool.blogspot.com/2008/04/paddle-offset-study.html

#43

paddle feather
I was at the first LL Bean kayak symposium in the early 80’s. Most of the Brit experts came over to bring the “Gospel of Sea Kayaking” to the ignorant colonists. They were emphatic about a 90* feather paddle was the only thing acceptable. I remember one stating that using anything else showed that you were a rank amateur. 90* feather hurt my wrists in about an hour, so I decided to join the Rank Amateur Club and remain a member in good standing to this day.



As I asked about the reason for “the gospel” about 90* feathered paddles, I heard the “easier going into the wind stuff”. Not being as smart as they were, I couldn’t figure out how to arrange my paddling so that I was always paddling into the wind, or how to prevent having to paddling with the wind from the side. A second reason given to me was the clearance over slalom gates mentioned. Not being a slalom racer this wasn’t important to me. A final reason made a bit more sense; In white water paddling, the blade in the water gives stability and support to that side throughout the stroke. If a rock or wave suddenly tipped you to the other side, with with a 90* feather the off side paddle blade would be in the ideal position for a instant brace. That made some sense to me. This last reason loses its credibility when one goes from a 90* feather to something around 30*. Since I wasn’t paddling white water with a double blade, I continued using a unfeathered paddle. After all these years my good standing in the Rank Amateur Club is important to me.



There is also another reason for rejecting feathered paddles. I have been making my own paddles for about 20 years. Completing a double blade paddle and then having to put one end in a vice, have a friend run a heat gun back and forth over the shaft while you twist the other end to induce the feather is a real bitch. Being lazy, I avoid this struggle and continued to make unfeathered paddles.



Dave

#44

Original question getting lost…
The original question was regarding ww kayaking and feathered paddles. Wind generally has no effect in ww paddling so that argument is null. For me, offset generally has more to do with torso rotation and proper setup. It seems a high angle paddling style would be awkward without the torso rotation that is required with a feather (30 degree for me). Wind resistance has nothing to do with why ww paddlers use a feathered paddle. The “that’s the way I was taught” argument is difficult too.

#45

only valid reason I’ve heard for WW
Ignoring slalom paddlers, for the vast majority of recreational whitewater paddlers, I think that a non-feathered paddle makes sense. After starting with a feathered paddle, I’m now using solely un-feathered paddles for whitewater and I also recommend them to my students. As a playboater, it greatly helps me at braces, stalls, loops, and offside backdeck rolls and I don’t feel that my paddling technique as suffered at all.



With that said, the only valid reason I’ve heard of is that if you’re punching a very large wave or hole, a non-feathered blade would offer resistance which could adversely affect your ability to power through. Granted, when you’re punching a large wave, you tend to use a boof stroke of sorts and push your paddle and body flat to the kayak anyways so even that reason comes into play only in limited ways. To me, I like the tradeoff against all the benefits of a non-feathered paddle so that’s what I use.



I also primarily use a greenland paddle for touring so paddle offset transitions aren’t a big deal. However, I do feather my paddle when using my wing paddle which seems to make sense to me for whatever reason.

#46

"Wind has no effect on ww paddling."
Really? What was blowing me all over the rapids last Sunday? I will say this… Unless it is a steady headwind or a steady tailwing, a paddle with a lot of feather is not much help. I use a 75 degree feather, and my wrists are just fine.

#47

Thanks for recalling and describing
that point. When I was paddling heavier water, I was mainly a c-1 paddler. By the time I was ww kayaking, I had scaled down proportional to age.



As a one-time researcher on muscle activity, I think there might be factors associated with feathered paddles, and maybe unfeathered paddles, that can cause fatigue and coordination problems. But I think that in both cases, some occasional mental focus on how, and when, one is gripping the paddle will fix things for either type of paddle.

#48

Generally…
I was careful to say that wind generally has nothing to do with ww paddling. Ask 100 ww paddlers why they use a feathered paddle and I bet only 1 would say because of the wind.

#49

Well, you said that wind generally has
no effect on ww paddling. And until you have done your survey, don’t assume what the paddlers will say.



One thing I was forced to recall last windy Sunday was that it may be necessary to turn the boat into the wind and to ferry back and forth to negotiate the rapids. That is a situation where a high-feather (75-90) paddle will be an advantage. I once explored a KY creek, and a violent cold front came through, blowing upriver directly against me. I had a double blade along, and fortunately, it was feathered 90 degrees. The wind was so strong that I could not keep the canoe moving, even with the current behind me, for very long with the canoe paddle.



WW kayakers have relatively less problem with wind, but it is certainly not a non-issue. C-1 paddlers have a little more difficulty, and open boat paddlers have BIG issues with wind. It is simply not the case that wind is no issue on whitewater.

#50

Original question
The original question was regarding feathered paddles, kayaks and whitewater. I was still trying to work through the original question. Of course canoes have greater issues with wind but we’re not talking about that. I was giving my opinion on why ww kayak paddlers choose a featherd paddle over zero offset. I’m confident it is not because of wind.

#51

In the 70s and 80s, those ww kayakers
who had any opinion about why they were using 90 degree feathered paddles believed it was so the upper blade would have less wind resistance during the stroke. That belief has decreased in the last two decades, as it should, because it is not as much of an issue as people then thought it was.



I’m not sure why you think that a survey of current ww paddler belief would be useful. I’ve already twice posted on this thread to stress the historical truth, that clearing slalom gates and reducing wind resistance to the upper blade were the reasons why 90 degree paddles dominated in the 70s and 80s. A survey of current beliefs does not change the historical truth. You can only study a prejudice of the times by studying those who held the prejudice.

#52

I can’t disagree
I have no idea why “historical” reasons would have any bearing on why I personally use a 30 degree feathered paddle and why most ww paddlers prefer feathered. There are specific techniques and maneuvers that are aided by a feathered and vice versa non-feathered paddle. Some ww paddlers avoid this debate altogether by using hand paddles. I can only give my personal opinion on why ww kayak paddlers use an offset paddle. We may be talking about different things.

#53

could it be more of a control hand
issue than a feather issue? I believe that the problem lies with people using one hand to try and control both blades when rolling and bracing. This stems from the ‘control hand’ mentality often taught in kayaking. People often overcome this by adopting ‘control hands’ mentality, where each hand controls the appropriate blade at the appropriate time.

#54

see my post above regarding bracing
and rolling when frequently switching blade angels.

#55

tradition vs empericism
When I first started WW paddling, there was a new move to 60deg away from 80. Two years later, my new paddles was a radical 45deg, which is where the trend leveled off for many years.



I certainly don’t see any benefit in using high feather angles for WW, even for upcanyon winds (which can be fierce on western rivers). As a practical matter, feather angle to reduce head/tail wind effects is best when at least 60deg (for sea kayaking, I have gone back to 75deg, like my race paddles). Below that, wind will create a lot of torque, making it hard to hold on. Zero feather (or 10-15) mostly creates resistance in headwinds that results simply in more work,not in the the shaft twisting forces medium angles produce.



Then again, I would argue that there doesn’t exist a feather angle that is best for everything. Ever use a bent shaft canoe paddle at high rates, without feathering? Brutally tiring! Unfortunately, we cannot, using technique, feather our recovery stroke with kayak paddles. Thus, kayakers in certain domains find a real advantage to using feathered paddles (slalom, sprint, or marathon, for example).



In WW, I would suggest that for any amount of upriver wind, the benefit of high feather angles is poor given what all else one encounters.



That said, why use any feather? As one poster mentioned, top WW paddlers (like race paddlers) look for any proven advantage. For play paddlers, the 45deg didn’t seem to be enough for dynamic moves, especially where there were rapid side changes under water. Thus, some went o 30. Since that seemed better for most play paddling, why not 10, or 15,or zero? This is where things got interesting. A lot of top play paddlers were actually very quick in trying out zero feather. Oddly enough, very few actually liked it. Of greater interest, they were all surprised, since they couldn’t explain why. A great majority of those experimenters (this all happened about 7-9 years ago)adopted 10-15. “It just works better” is commonly heard.



For creekers, they have not not been as quick to adopt zero to 15, most seem to like 30,and some still stick with 45. There is a small but critical reason- not going through holes (one poster already mentioned this, and punching holes,or getting worked in one, may have the same needs for feather that play paddlers have). Waterfalls. Miss-calculate, and busting a paddle is only one bad outcome (broken jaws, lost teeth are not unheard of). The consensus is, that a bit of feather dumps the load of an impact more than a zero feather paddle, which can, if the blades are both parallel to the surface, cause a lot of ugliness.



IMO, there are far more reasons for people in most recreational kayak pursuits to use zero feather rather than feather. That said, to categorically claim that zero feather is superior, is to discount practical experience of paddlers far more skilled than most of use will ever be. Every discipline has it’s gem of wisdom that others could learn from, and other gems that is only pertinent to their discipline.


#56

2nd paragraph question…?
In your opinion, wouldn’t the technique you describe work for a feathered paddle?

Wouldn’t unlearning the control hand thing, as you describe in paragraph 3, work for a feathered paddle as well?



I ask because I use both techniques when I paddle and I can easily switch back and forth from 90L to 90R without much problem during all strokes (bracing and rolling included). Each hand controls (or does not control) the appropriate blade at the appropriate time.

#57

It is an interesting question why some
people who have gone to low feather angle, haven’t gone all the way to zero. Again, as a one time researcher into muscle kinesiology, I have my suspicions, but I can’t confirm them. I’m retired, I don’t have a lab. I think that, perhaps, they human brain and its motor system are somewhat asymmetrical, and prefer a little feather to differentiate right versus left. That little accomodation to asymmetry may contribute to less tendency to clench the paddle, and less fatigue. Perhaps we will eventually see zero feather as an extreme like 90 degree feather.



But I am also convinced that most people can avoid inappropriate paddle clenching, and can live comfortably with substantial feather (75 degrees) or zero feather.

#58

Good input!
So far I heard 2 good, one half-good and one 3/4 good reasons -:wink: why “serious” WW folks can benefit from a high or low degree of feather. And only one of them applies to “non-serious” paddlers in very unlikely situations.


  • shaving some time off slalom gates


  • somewhat uneven resistance when in trouble so the paddle would apply less force to your jaws ;). This may work for anyone, but “non-serious” WW folks are very unlikely to get themselves into such situation.


  • canyons funnel winds up/down river so assuming they mostly go downriver that would help if the wind is upriver. But would not help if they turn sideways or the wind is downriver too (so 1/2 point on this).


  • bracing faster as the in-air blade is parallel to the water. But that only is true for one side for low braces - the non-controlling hand sinde. The other side it is just the opposite - the blade is upside down, somewhat hindering a low brace. But good for high braces. So I take off a 1/4 point on this one.



    These are all reasonable things and I did not think of them when I posted the question…
#59

15* feather
Fall 07 I was with Dave Yost at Raystown. Bill Swift was trying a Aleutian paddle I had made and Dave offered to let me try his bent shaft Werner Kalliste paddle. Said it was set at 15* which was best for his trashed wrists (from decades of making strip prototypes). I responded that I was a confirmed unfeathered paddle user. He said that the 15* turned out to be neutral in use.



Well, my brain accepted what he said because of my respect for his thinking and experience, but my body said no way- I’m a member of the Rank Amateur Club that never feathers a paddle. When I came back from the test paddle I had to tell Dave that he was correct. The 15* feather, at least with that paddle, worked out to be neutral when paddling my Rapidfire with a low angle stroke. I won’t generalize about other paddles, other boats, other stroke angles or other paddlers, but for me that experience was a revelation.



Dave

#60

FWIW
"And I have worked with respected sea kayak coaches who have let go of the control hand bit, but if asked their opinion will associate unfeathered paddling with a variety of uncomplimentary adjectives about the paddler."





Then there’s the WW and Sea Kayak humble man named Ken Whiting who’d paddle circles round said highly respected coaches with a non-featherd paddle…or his hands for that matter…



Last I spoke with Ben Lawrey his comment was “anymore I’m beginning to think it just doesn’t matter”



Paddle feather angle does not make the paddler!