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Wilderness Tripping, or what?

Is this time to ask whether this forum is related to Wilderness Tripping--- BWCA and Beyond, or whether it is merely a canoe/kayak camping board? Much of what one sees on here has nothing to do with wilderness paddling.


  • Define wilderness
    By some measures there is little of it. Yet the Slates, Algonquin , some parts of Maine do qualify. And those are topics here.

    I suggest you seek your own wilderness away from the keyboard.

    I do appreciate the advice about Alaska weather this year as I am on my way there for a four week wilderness ( or not as your definition may vary) even though it was not related to a specific trip.
  • This post belongs on B&B....
    -- Last Updated: May-27-12 11:16 PM EST --

    doesn't it? Or the discussion forum? It certainly does not have anything to do with wilderness tripping.
    G2D, go to a mirror and scold yourself for an hour. You'll feel better. ;)

  • Two surprisingly lame responses
    already. And from people who know very well what I'm talking about. Many parts of Maine are fine, but many of the posts on here refer to rivers that make Maine look like untouched, pristine wilderness.

    The threads on this forum usually do not refer to, or relate to, wilderness tripping. Kayakmedic, considering your extensive experience, I'm surprised you even show up here.
  • How about like the BWCA, or beyond?
    I might settle for a serious incursion into cabin-ish areas like the Adirondacks or Algonquin. But not something like an overnight in north Georgia.

  • "Is this the time to ask..."
    -- Last Updated: May-28-12 8:42 AM EST --


    Just let the board be what it is and make the best of it. With rare exceptions - I find this to be a very friendly place. If you don't have something nice or helpful to say don't say anything. If you want to be involved in a board that involves only wilderness traveling then best to try some other boards. The Canadian Canoe Routes site is a good one. But even there many posts are about traveling in areas that do not meet some definitions of wilderness. On the other hand there are many folks here with a fair amount of tripping experience who I am sure would be glad to provide information to you about specific trips you might have in mind or about wilderness tripping questions you might have. Are you thinking about a specific trip?

  • There IS no wilderness
    Go above the Artic Circle. People have been living there for a thousand years! I am going there this summer and guess what...there will be folks fishing, gathering and hunting. There might be one in a thousand miles but there will be evidence of people.

    Yeesh. That's what I mean by there is no good definition of wilderness. Yes I can go canoeing in Maine and not see anyone for two weeks. But is that wilderness or not? By the BDub definition it is. Bdub is hardly wilderness.

    For most people wilderness means something different than their everyday environment. And that definition has personal meaning.

    I really paddle for me. Not to impress you g2d. I could care less.

    Have you nothing better to do than grouse on this site? I am not playing one up.

    I have paddling to do.
  • I'm thinking about getting this forum,
    and the other three, to become more useful to everyone. Many are posting on this board with very non-wilderness questions that would get more attention and better answers on the other forums.

    Brent's guidelines for each forum are reasonably clear, but no one uses them.

    On trip planning, I always know where to go, because people tell me.
  • Did I ask for whom you paddle, or
    indicate an interest? I'm not interested in why or where people paddle, but why this "wilderness and beyond" board lures people away from where they can get their inquiries answered, possibly by that word "wilderness." This board could be serving people who actually do multiple overnight trips in relatively remote surroundings, as the guideline implies.

    I can tell there's a failure to communicate when people think I'm pointing to them, personally.
  • Neutral Corners
    Would you two go to neutral corners, or rivers and cool off. I value both your opinions on many paddling subjects. This is getting off topic and too personal.
    Yes there are a lot of questions posted on the "wilderness board" that have only to do with camping or tripping. But they do get answered. And perhaps by more knowledgeable folks than the poster might find on other boards. So the questioner sits in the wrong pew; but they are in the right church.
    Enjoy the day, and keep posting,
  • Options
    not getting enough attention lately g2d?
    How about you stop trolling for attention and get out and paddle?
  • There's an idea!
    -- Last Updated: May-28-12 8:17 PM EST --

    Go out and paddle and stop typing. Not much in the way of wilderness typing on your computer.

    People are communicating just fine.

  • Wilderness tripping.....
    .... maybe the place to start is aligning the title with the description. The forum title says:

    Wilderness Tripping - BWCA & Beyond
    From the Adirondacks to Yellowstone, from Maine to California paddlers are venturing into the wilderness for weekends or extended trips. Meet others, discuss locations, gear, and more!

    Wilderness isn't defined and I'm thinking that a weekend in the "wilderness" is a hard thing to pull off and open for interpretation. A weekend trip is easier and falls within the forum description.

    Like g2d I do find this particular message board forum to not usually align with my idea of wilderness and isn't a place where I go for information, however, the content does usually align with the forum description. It's tough to find a good place to exchange information with others who go to areas where most do not (my idea of wilderness).

    I think that this forum, as is, serves the majority of the fine folks who make Pnet a regular part of their life.

  • You might want to try some more
    consistently controversial forums, to thicken your skin. Kayakmedic and I aren't about to permanently fall out over one issue.

    For all the fine people who show up on pnet, there's a higher proportion than I've encountered on any other board who just will not abide comments about what appears on a forum. Go to any other paddling forum I know, post on the wrong board, and if the administrator doesn't correct you, several others will.

    I don't care anymore about occasional misplaced posts, but this particular forum is drifting far from its original purpose, and value.

    I guess I could wait until all of the Emperor's clothes are gone.
  • Beside the point, both of you.
    If you don't see an issue here, or just don't care, then why show up here at all? Go paddle yourself.
  • I'd say about half aligns with

    Brent could redefine it as a forum for any sort of extended canoeing and camping. That might fit. I just read a report of a three day canoe camping trip on a canal/river in the Netherlands, and by no stretch of the imagination was it wilderness. But they encountered many of the same issues.

    I got a chuckle out of a recent post that asked for wilderness day trips. If you can get in and out in a day, then I suppose it might be some eastern "wilderness area" but it no longer sounds to me like wilderness tripping.
  • I plead guilty
    I guess I'm an offender since I have been soliciting camping recommendations near Washington DC, which is most definitely a bearucratic wilderness, but maybe not a paddling one. I had the good fortune to do a trip in BCWA a while back and I hope to again someday. But for the time being, the wildest place I'll be paddling probably will have "State Park" somewhere in the title.

    It did actually cross my mind that maybe I was posting in the wrong spot and that the paddling spots I had in mind weren't epic enough to really count as "wilderness tripping". But what other forum should I have posted in? I didn't want to argue with anyone, so B&B was out. My question certainly wasn't fishing or asking for partners. The Advice forum is all "what's the best kayak/canoe for me?" and "how do I fix my XYZ?" (althought the "kayak wholesale" thread on there is pretty entertaining) The Paddler's Place is all "rudder vs. skeg" debates, musings about trip reports, and links to news stories about dudes who drown and weren't wearing a PFD. So this forum still seemed like the best spot. I reasoned that localish trips are still within the scope of "and Beyond".
  • Sometimes it is a best-fit choice
    I've posted questions about non-wilderness area camping before because this forum is the closest match to the kind of advice I sought.

    Calling it "paddle-camping" would avoid problems about defining wilderness, I agree. However, it doesn't seem to be an actual problem for most people who come to Pnet.
  • wilderness
    at least according to Wikipedia, is defined by the extent of human impact and development, not how long it takes to get there:

    by that standard (and also allowing that places are sometimes returned to being free of development), there are a surprising amount of places within a few hours of DC that would shock some people upon seeing how wild they are.
  • You might actually get a better response
    on Advice, Discussion, or People & Places. This forum has gotten slow, and I think one reason is the discrepancy between the guideline (quite good and well-stated) and what people read in the "Wilderness" threads. We've lost most of the "wilderness" canoe campers who are still on myccr and even Song of the Paddle.
  • Options
    I LIKE this board just the way it is...
    -- Last Updated: Jun-19-12 11:25 AM EST --

    ..oh! and any excuse to tell g2d to go stuff himself is a plus!...thanks fer stoppin' by to enable me.

    Now go stuff yer self biscuit eater.

  • Here's a thought for you, g2d:
    Let BRENT decide when HIS boards need policing, scolding and instructive posts to bring people back on topic. It is HIS creation, HIS livelihood, and HIS baby. I'm sure if he really wants YOUR help, he knows how to get in touch with to ask for it.

    Has he asked you for help? Then shut up already.

  • You're stuck on your own definition.
    Which likely means nothing to anyone else. Where I paddle with friends on WW in West Virginia, once you put on, you are not taking off without a 7-10 mile hike with no trails, up to 800' climbs, and no help along the way, all while leaving your gear behind. And there is zero chance of first aid other than what you or someone in your group can provide. That's a reasonable definition of "wilderness" in my opinion, though unlikely yours because we "get in and out in a day". So what? Brent didn't define it further than he did, so what gives you the right to make decisions and give directions for him?

    If the site's not useful for you, g2d, the door is easily found. Be sure not to let it bump you on the way out.

  • Options
    Grow up you sound like a child...If you look at the post and board he is right
  • You're being silly again.
  • It's nice to see the boad policeman
    is still doing his job
  • maybe he never saw Deliverance
  • Way to change the subject .
    What does BWCA and beyond mean to you? Twelve miles on Chattooga 3 with many known exit points? One of the largest formal wilderness areas in the east, the Cohuttas, is not much as wilderness goes. The rivers that run through it have been run, occasionally. I have run one of them, and I have walked every mile of both rivers. I never assumed I was in wilderness. None of the whitewater paddlers I've known since 1974 would consider them wilderness.

    But it isn't that which makes me scratch my head. It's people that come to this forum talking about trips on rivers that have settlements all up and down, or an overnight on a lake that has prepared campsites. (BWCA is getting a bit like that.)

    If you want a wilderness forum where most posters aren't talking about wilderness, you know how to get it. But it won't change the fact that most paddlers DO NOT call that wilderness, and that the forum guideline does not read that way.

    What frustrates some of you is that I'm right, but I won't go away when you yell at me.
  • What are you doing over here? I can't
    remember when I last saw you on the wilderness forum. Same for Yak of Pewter. I guess you're just another policeman, like me. Takes one to know one.

    But you wouldn't know a real issue if it crawled in your boat and bit you.
  • No, the only thing frustrating about you
    is the anal retentive way you go about attempting to police something as if it's yours, when it clearly is not, and the real owner seems to take no interest in doing the same.

  • So I ask the cops
    If I travel down the Teslin and the Yukon Rivers is that wilderness? The trip will take fourteen days. Sometimes there will be no people and sometimes there will be as the Yukon is a working river. There are no roads along most of it.

    I just find the discussion here silly. Wilderness is a white mans word. To Natives the word is home.Wilderness does not certainly mean where no man has gone before.
  • I love it!
    g2d thinks being reminded he posted on the wrong board is lame! And he is so right! ROTFLMAO!
  • Here's a thought for you.
    Pretending that being away from a paved road for a few hours or a few miles is perhaps good for your flagging mental health. But it's still pretending. BWCA or beyond. Brent wrote that.

    On no other paddling forum I've ever visited are people so touchy about being told they might have posted in a better place in order to serve their own needs. It seems to have to do with the middle school developmental level and mentality of a few pnetters.

    Go ahead and complain to Brent if you want to. Explain why you came over to this forum to bitch at me when you never show up here otherwise. Policing?
  • Explain what you're doing over here.

    My original post makes an incontrovertible point. Many of the posts on this forum have nothing to do with wilderness paddling. This is a slow-moving forum, and one possible reason is that its purpose has been ignored. How would we lure more real wilderness paddlers back to this board?

    You've made your argument--- If you can't see a house and can't hear traffic, it must be wilderness. To which I have answered, "BWCA and beyond." That's what people mean by wilderness.

    Yakky, I've been here longer than you, I've helped more people than you by a factor of ten, and I'm not planning on changing my views for you, or leaving.

    I "policed" no individual in my original post, and if you don't like my definition of wilderness, you've gotten to offer yours, at no cost to you. What does it say about you that you can't choose to leave it at the level of an honest disagreement?
  • kayakmedic, wilderness is hard to
    define so that the definition includes or excludes marginal cases, but most people I know would recognise that a good number of posts on this forum don't have anything to do with "wilderness." And we see rather few posts on this forum by serious wilderness paddlers.

    Remind me, did you have something to say about "BWCA and beyond?"
  • Not yet
    I have nothing to say. I will have plenty to say in September about beyond.
  • I like it
    I know I'm one of the newer members here and well under the experience level of most others. However I have to say I like this forum and most of the post I've read. The ones I don't like I just stop reading. I think g2d has a point, it's just not a valid one by most standards.
    I am not a wilderness tripper, but I do hope to be one day. Right now I have work, kids, and other things that keep me from disappearing into the "wilderness" for a month in my canoe. What I can do are weekend trips. On these trips I can practice good habits for future wilderness trips like packing for a week to practice with the load, carrying bear spray and securing my barrel to a tree even though the odds are slim I'll encounter a bear near DC.

    I look to this forum for advice on trips, wether its a week on the Bloodvien river that I'd like to do in the next five years, or a weekend on the james that I'll do this weekend.

    Typos attributed to my IPad.

  • Options
    Like I said...
    ..Biscuit Eater.
  • The forum could be called "canoe &
    kayak camping." That would cover what's actually under discussion.
  • Options
    Thanks For The Chuckle Kids
    I rarely visit from B&B because for the most part it is a boring topic. This has been a good thread humor wise. If you want a wilderness experience in the 48 wear your hiking boots. Water attracts people. It's the #1 destination for vacationers. In some "wildernesses" campsites have to be assigned because of the crowds.

    Experienced wilderness traveler don't normally look for advise. Why would they be here? I visit just to see what people on this site like to do.

    The best way I've found to ruin a wilderness is to designate it as one. Turns the place into a people magnet.
  • Experienced wilderness travelers
    share advice on myccr.

    There are wilderness runs in the lower 48, and they aren't at all hard to find. That one may run into other wilderness travelers does not disqualify a run as being wilderness, anymore than running into other hikers disqualifies a trail from being wilderness.

    I wouldn't say that an occasional bit of common sense would disqualify a thread on B&B, either.

    This is really just a canoe camping forum.
  • Options
    why don't you go pester Brent to change the name of the board instead of being a Biscuit Eater to the folks in here who like the board and how it's used?

    Get a life slacker.
  • A guy named SuperTroll has already
    given away all his credibility. You can complain to Brent if you don't want to discuss this issue in a meaningful fashion.
  • Options
    For 17 Years Forest Service Land
    Was literally a stone's throw from my door. I once shot a deer while standing in my doorway. I used to have a trail maintenance business. If you want to get away from the crowds try restrictive river. The Green at the Gates of Lodore or the Selway come to mind. The Verde in February is nice.

    Wilderness is a personal experience unique to the visitor. It's not about bragging rights. Most wilderness travelers I know best express their wilderness experiences with a knowing smile. It comes from being there. It doesn't translate very well into writen words. If you want a dialogue about wilderness visit one with a friend.
  • I like wildlife and solitude in the wild
    I feel wilderness is a state of mind as much as place and/or its size. It may also be seasonal in nature. Since most of what we call wilderness today is populated by human inhabitants or multiple visitors, and much of it has been human altered many times. Does it really exist today? Can we say that wilderness exists where we have satellite coverage for phone, GPS, Spot, etc? Does it really matter if your definition or mine jive with one another?

    There is a legal definition for designating official wilderness areas and these designated areas exist in both the east and west of this country. So do we only allow discussion of trips in legally designated wilderness areas? What is the cut off for wilderness tripping verses non wilderness trips? I don’t think it is cut and dry.

    I have paddled some wild country. I have hiked, camped, and hunted in both eastern and western wilderness areas and certainly don’t think of any of them as true wilderness. I would consider the Antarctic as such, but today there are really few areas of the world’s wild places that can bear up to that standard even when considering much of the Arctic or earth’s oceanic environment.

    I feel this forum serves more folks well the way it is currently being used. Changing the title seems of little matter to me. I do think restricting the current topics would be detrimental. I think it is good that experienced wilderness trippers come here to advise the overnight tripper in a place someone thinks of as wild even when it is small of size or close to civilization.

    I just have a different perspective and little interest in changing the status of this particular forum. I like wildlife and solitude in the wild. I like being alone or sharing it with a few friends/family best. That suits me better than definitions or place designation.
  • Options
    we all just get along.....take that any way you chose to.
  • Options
    people who say that...
    end up in the bottom of the pool....
  • Like others, you have disregarded my
    original point. This is labeled, and "guidelined" as a wilderness, BWCA and beyond forum, but people are treating it as a canoe camping forum.

    I'm not very interested in whether people can draw a clear distinction between wilderness rivers, wild rivers, and the Chicago River, but about half the posts on here can't be related to "wilderness" or "wild." I don't think anyone here can dispute that.

    I've soloed the Dolores Slickrock, and soloed a fair number of quasi-wilderness streams in the west. Haven't done the Verde yet. Hard to catch it when there's water.
  • Very reasonable OP
    I interpret g2d's OP as simply asking what the purpose of this forum is and whether it is optimally labeled.

    I think those are reasonable questions. I find myself never posting and rarely reading this forum because I don't really understand its purpose or incremental value.

    I also think the title is at least doubly ambiguous. "Wilderness" is a word that has been highly (and intelligently) debated on other boards, and I think it's fair to say it has no definitive meaning, objectively or subjectively.

    "BWCA and Beyond" is also not very helpful as a topic specifier because it implies a sort ambiguous directional aspect. To be facetious but to make the ambiguity point, if you live in Manitoba what's beyond the BWCA could be Chicago.

    The only real content help I get from the forum title is the word "tripping". So, I've sort of assumed that the purpose of the forum was to have discussions about extended paddle trips vs. day trips. Yet, the trip reports for extended trips seem to show up either in the Discussion Forum or completely outside the Forums under the Articles-Places to Paddle pull-down menu. Gear discussions, which could apply to extended tripping gear, seem to show up mainly in ASGH Forum.

    In sum, I don't have any particular suggestions for re-organizing or re-titling the forums on this site, but I do personally conclude that there is not the quality of discussion here regarding canoe tripping-planning-camping as there is on CCR or was on the apparently defunct ST. That's too bad because those sites had a heavy emphasis on Canada.

    Another issue for this site re providing attractive information and entertainment regarding canoe tripping and camping in wilderness, or anywhere else, is the apparent inability to embed photographs and videos into the body of posts. I assume that's some technical issue related to the site software.

    So, this is my first and probably last post on this forum -- and I regret that it wasn't even on topic, whatever the topic is. Sorry for trying anyone's patience.
  • Possibly overthinking it
    One other factor is that the list of designated federal wilderness areas can *change*. "New wilderness" gets added. Of course, there is no real new wilderness, physically. It's just a label.
  • No real freedom, either.
    As I said before, most of us who seek wilderness know very well what we're looking for, and it isn't a short day run in north Georgia, and it isn't the Arkansas above Salida. BWCA and beyond says it very well.
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