I hope you weren’t thinking I was…
attacking you. Rather, I’m sympathetic to many of your comments, as well as Dowd’s, though not in complete agreement, my bad jokes aside. I can sympathize with folks that are currently paddling a -fill in the blank-Sea Piggy, but they really want a Rapier, or an Explorer, but can’t find the money yet. That sucks! I hated it when I was there. Specialist shops can sell Sea Piggys at a profit like Dick’s or REI and I do my best to support them. But, they gotta get there message out there, come to us! My best advise to anyone that is not in the boat(s) of the their dreams now is to join a club and be really nice to your club mates. I highly recommend cookies at the takeout. You will find smoking bargains and if the time is right you can score good kit at working stiff prices. And no offense to anyone paddling the Sea Piggy because it is exactly what you want and need for what you want and need to do, I’m sure it is a delight for that.
Dogmaticus
knocked that one right out of the park…
Dasteely, way to go.
Dogmaticus
No problem.
Actually, I had another point I forgot to add to that. When I said the resevoirs are mostly lined with homes (and powerboaters to boot), I meant that this makes it not much of a nature break. White River, on the other hand, which flows right through the middle of Indy but is mostly lined with major flood plane, has a lot of remoteness to it. I was out yesterday for 4 hours and until I got to the last mile of my 8 mile paddle, I saw no one. Unfortunately, the last mile widens and deepens and is basicly a long lake. With the temp at 82, I had several water skiers to contend with.
Walk a mile in my shoes…
Or should I say paddle a mile in my boat?
I was trying to get across the idea that despite the top equipment being relatively affordable, many of those who can afford it still percieve composite boats as expensive. <
Composite maybe perfectly affordable but as dasteely observe, it’s also unneccessary for many. In small body of water, where a good portion of the paddlers enjoy, it has little advantage for their increased price. If there’s a definition of “expensive”, I think that’s it: Little or no additional benefit for the increased price.
For those who paddle the “BIG” water for longer distance, composites DO have advantage that’s worth the addded cost. At least in the eyes of most purchasers. But trying to apply that same value to a paddler who has no access to big water, you’ll get the typical response that it’s over-priced. What they really mean is it’s over-priced for THEIR application.
I’ve been on both sides. I started paddling in the Pacific coast. I live 30 min. from the bay and an hour to the ocean. More over, there’s relatively little in the way of “small water” such as lakes and slow rivers. So a composite long boat is an appropriate “starter boat”. In fact, I think my own observation is about 1/2 of the boats on the water there are composites.
So when I moved to the east coast, I got another composite one without even a second thought. But it turns out I’m an hour plus to the “biggish” water but not the exciting big swells I got to enjoy on the west coast. Instead, there’re tons of small lakes and ponds and numereous slow rivers to explore. Well, to say the composite long boat is an overkill is understating it!
I had plan to get another plastic short boat for my SO. But really, the real reason being I know I get to use the cheapie boat without worry about scratching it on the rocky bottoms of the rivers! ;o)
In my original post I said if someone was a serious paddler and could afford it, a composite sea kayak is relatively inexpensive compared to many other sports/hobbies. I don’t think this is an elitist statement. <
You may not MEANT to be elitist but unfortunately it come across as such. If you re-read your own post as a third person, it seems to imply anyone who doesn’t paddle a composite are “not serious” paddlers!
Real “Sea Kayaks” vs Geography.
Most paddlers I know don’t live near either the sea or great lakes, so no need for “true sea kayaks”. Folks who paddle mostly rivers or small lakes have no need for sea kayaks and would probably be hindered by them.
Even though I may never paddle in conditions requiring the sea worthyness of a “true sea kayak”, I appreciate the efficiency when wanting to cover relatively long distances in short periods of time or when I do want to paddle in windy and wavy conditions.
It may actually be people like Sing that are bringing down the “true sea kayak” industry by switching from sea kayaks to surf skis.
It seems like there’s not that many people out there that would be using a “true sea kayak” for “true sea kayaking” Here in central IL, most people just paddle them around on medium sized lakes in relatively calm conditions (with the exception of the central IL p.netters).
I’m not a serious padder, but am
enthusiastic.
I still covet a 40 lb or less, 16’ or so sea kayak, but I’ve decided not to let the car fall apart or default on the home loan in order to lay out the cash for for such a boat. It will come in due time. My priorities have been askew in favor of boats and gear for the last couple years, but I think I’m starting to level out now and become a responsible adult again. It’s hard to justify $3k to $4k for a top of the line composite sea kayak when I’m telling my wife that we can’t afford to do much for vacation this year and that we can’t afford to put a deck under the gazebo in the back yard.
I fully expect to have a boat some day that I’m actually thrilled about, rather than some that are just adequate, but I have some other some othe financial obligations to take care of first.
If I had the spare cash, my selection of both kayaks and canoes would be quite different. I’m pretty satisfied with my paddle selection now.
Paddling is by far my most expensive hobby. Just one boat costs more than all of my other recreational gear combined.
Another great point
"But really, the real reason being I know I get to use the cheapie boat without worry about scratching it on the rocky bottoms of the rivers! ;o)"
One I failed to make for fear of sounding like a guy that neither appreciates, or takes care of my possessions. That isn’t true, but it’s impossible to do rivers in late summer around here when the water is low without scraping the bottom. My plastic boat, not a big deal. If I were in a $3500 composite? I’d cry and spend the next week buffing it out (or whatever you do to clean that up) and trying to run a hose into the river to fill it back up!
Maybe an option for some . . . .
http://www.theoutsideworld.net/boats.php
Check out the 2-year buy back at the very bottom of the page.
Not a bad way for someone to try out a poly before upgrading to a fiberglass boat . . . .
no offense intended
In my previous post.
But I think your premise is flawed re: rec kayaks hurting the sea kayak industry, that's where you lost me. Rec kayaks do no more to detract from the sea kayak market than sea kayaks do to the ww kayak market. Fact is, the general population will embrace rec kayaks first and foremost. Placing sea kayaks at the center of the kayaking ranges/types is folly. Sea kayaking IS a pursuit for the...well, not for the masses.
As for plastic sea kayaks? I mentioned previously that Jon Turk would probably disagree with you and Dowd there. And if a plastic sea kayak with a similar hull design as it's composite sister makes it more affordable to a potential sea kayaker, then that's a good thing for sea kayaking.
I also hope you don't think I was implicating you personally as a snob. But one of the things that made me hesitant to enter the sport and seek out help and advice was a feeling from some sea kayakers that this was a "special" sport, that you need "special" gear and instruction and it isn't for everyone, only the most committed. No that I've been sea kayaking awhile I've found plenty of other shops, instructors and paddlers who are genuinely interested in growing the sport. But at the start the 'elitist (for lack of a better term) attitude turned me off a bit to the sport.
So are comp sea kayaks expensive? Subjective. Not if we're talking used, but I've never bought a new boat. IT all depends on your budget and your level of commitment/involvement. It can be reasonable or a lot more costly depending on those variables.
Agree
"It seems like there’s not that many people out there that would be using a “true sea kayak” for “true sea kayaking” Here in central IL…"
There’re only 3 “BIG” body of water in this country, the Pacific, the Atlantic and the Great Lakes. Central IL isn’t near any of them except for that littel glimps of Lake Michigan.
So it’s no wonder there’s no many sea kayak there. And the ones there don’t see much “sea kayaking” actions! ;o)
It’s easy for people living on the coast to forget others having no need for a “real” sea kayak. It’s also easy for people who live in land-locked states to forget that for people living in California and Washington, the best boat, even for a first one, may indeed be a sea kayak.
“elitist” attitudes did not change.
What changed is your impressions and understanding of sea kayaking/kayakers/gear.
Any snobbery that you perceived went away because you left it behind. This has little if anything to do with any real "snob factor" and everything to do with the lens you view things through. You simply see and hear things differently now.
To a newbie, or even some longer term rec paddlers, any "sea kayaker" with any experience/skill/gear they don't have (whether they want it or not) can come off as a know it all, or condescending, or a gear junky, etc. It's a perception, not a reality.
I'm sure many see my QCC or SOF or Ski, various carbon and self made paddles, and misc. other decent "higher end" gear and make all sorts of judgments. They weren't around when I was paddling a 9' Stearns inflatable with a cheap Harmony paddle, or "upgraded" to 28" wide plastic, or sold off boats to buy others (most used), etc.
Sort to rant - and comments are general, not personal - but am way beyond sick of the "elitist" labels. Its become a bonding ritual of sorts for some (oh poor us!), a full on religion for others (Blessed are the poor and roll-less masses!). Pervasive enough that few seem to question it anymore (aka "dumbing down").
It's nonsense.
"Special sport? Damn right it is. So are many others. Participation in them doesn't grant any special status - though there certainly are perks/rewards.
Most people DO have access to Big H2O
I don’t have the statistics, but the vast majority of Americans do live within 2 hours of the ocean or great lakes.
If you think the rec boat makers designed those cheap little kayaks just for the midwest guy with a bass pond in his corn fields, you are wrong.
You and your buddy who gave you a high five are not following the original intent of this discussion.
Let me see if this helps you understand. There is a sport called sea kayaking. It was originally performed in long narrow kayaks designed to be sea worthy in big water, like the oceans or great lakes. There was special training involved so the paddler could go sea kayaking safely in most of the conditions that oceans could throw at them. There are many disciplines of sea kayaking including Greenland style, surfskiing, British style, etc…These have unique techniques and equipment, but all involve sea worth craft and specialized skills that make the sport safe in big water, near where the majority of Americans live.
You and your little buddy in little 12 ft long 26 inch wide rec boats in the local bass pond are not sea kayaking by the traditional definitions. Those little boats are fine for that recreation, but it is not sea kayaking like many of us still understand it. Those little boats and the folks that buy them are changing the definition of sea kayaking. I’m not sure if this will ultimately be good for the true sport of sea kayaking or if it will kill it.
I asked if the plethora of these cheap recreational “kayaks” is good or bad for the true sport of sea kayaking. Your comments and the high fives from your buddy seem to support the theory that true sea kayaking may be in danger.
You’re missing the point . . . .
You stated that "Are all these cheap plastic "recreational" kayaks doing more harm than good for the true sport of sea kayaking?" You specifically mentioned RECREATIONAL kayaks, not only the plastic SEA kayaks. And I stated that most people don't have convenient access to water worthy of sea kayaking. Even two hours away is not convenient for an after work paddle, and in many cases, not even for a weekend day w/ other family commitments, etc.
And I don't believe that the majority of Americans live within two hours of oceans or great lakes. If you believe that, back it up with some research. I know you will say that the major cities w/ high populations are close to water, but what you also fail to realize is that many of those people are apartment dwellers with little storage for such a boat. And many people in the major cities don't even have a vehicle for lack of need for one w/ public transportation. I don't envision anyone carrying a 16' kayak on the bus down to the coast, even if they are mere blocks from big water.
My point was that with little to no access to big water for most Americans (and until you disprove me, I'm standing behind that), sea kayaking is a relatively small part of the market. Rivers and lakes are much more accessible to the majority of the population (even if big water is available a ways away, most are within probably 15-30 minutes of a river or lake). A 16-18 footer on the river I frequent would be tough to manage in some areas and is just unneccessary. The water is also often too shallow to roll, so stability is a plus over efficiency.
Again, if opening up the market for a much larger potential customer base for kayaking OVERALL is bad for the sport of sea kayaking, then that sport has other issues. Like the fact that if people enjoy the rec kayak as much or more on water other than that appropriate for a sea kayak, then it's losing to a competitve sport, not "dumbing down" of the customers. It seems to me that they are reacting to this competition with better technology. Improving the quality of lower-priced alternatives should IMPROVE the sport, not put it in danger. As I posted two days ago, some dealers are already encouraging upgrades like the following: http://www.theoutsideworld.net/boats.php
I find it absurd also that someone buying a cheap rec yak to get on the ocean would hate it so much that they would never consider upgrading to the proper equipment. I think a few morons would never make the association, but likely they would realize (or be told so somewhere along the buying process) that better equipment would make it more enjoyable. If anything, a cheap entry should entice more people to try it and provide the incentive to eventually upgrade in equipment. In sales, we always talk about the customer making baby steps up to where they are comfortable. A car manufacturer always advertises the lowest price vehicle they have, and once sold on that, THEN they start upgrading the customer to better features.
And to the point of whether or not $3-4K is too expensive, obviously that depends. For most people, the answer is yes. I'm happy that you're blessed enough to afford it, but most can't.
Lastly your attitude like "you and your buddy in the midwest" and "bass pond in the cornfield" is the reason people find you to be an elitist ass. You proved them right with your condescending attitude.
Did Schwinn kill Bicycling?
Most bicycles sold in America have no place in competitive cycling but given the success the US has had in the Tour de France over the past decade or more I’d have to say that the more people we put on bikes the more that ultimate move on to more competitive cycling.
Rec yaks are not seakayaks - two different things. How can one detract from the other? Rising personal income probably has more of an effect on seakayaking - one way or the other - than cheap rec yaks do. With more disposable income more Americans can put the money into more capable boats … but some will also say, you know - I’d rather be on a sailboat or powerboat than pushing this thing around; and now that they can afford it they don’t pursue the sport as often.
Here’s my theory
What is seakayaking - is it a sport or a pursuit? I can’t see it as much of a sport since it isn’t competitive for the most part. Yes, you can race but very, very few do so.
So it is primarily a pursuit - something you do because you enjoy it. That puts it in the same domain as photography or hiking. It can be rewarding to be sure, but ‘progress’ is a solitary pursuit.
My guess is that for most, this is a passion for awhile, then a diversion, and then they do it only occasionally. Their primary driver is to be out on the water, not to perfect the forward stroke. For many, as they get older they also find other ways to be around the water - ways that are more fun and social rather than the often solitary hours of paddling. Even with a few friends, much of the time you cannot speak with one another.
So I think seakayaking is always going to be niche pursuit - very passionately engaged in by some, but it’s not going to become the next great national pasttime.
A very good assessment . . . .
And not from one of my “buddies” from the bass-pond-in-the-cornfield-midwest.
GaryR, you also brought up bicycling earlier, and I think that’s a fitting analogy based on this assessment as well. I started mountain biking several years ago, and there’s a nice public park in the woods near my home that’s dedicated to having a mountain bike course. It’s fun, good excercise and a nice trip into nature. But it’s tough for two or more people to hook up with the same skills and endurance to go through the course together. Even then, it’s difficult to socialize because of the intensity of the ride. So it’s primarily an individual pursuit, not much family or social interaction available, and I’ve since quit going with anyone else. Just go on my own when I’m in shape and feel like it.
Rec kayaking is much different, because it’s much more leisurely, and can be quite social. I have never been sea kayaking, and have only a casual desire to ever do so. But I definitely see where it would be much like I’ve found mountain biking to be.
Good points
You all make some pretty good points. Is kayaking expensive depends on what you consider expensive.
I bought a brand new 18ft bass boat a few years a when gas 1.78 for mid grade until money got tight then it was too expensive to keep it. Your best day was the day you bought and your next best day is the day you sell it. Here it is fifteen later and I get in to this sport, no kids at home.So I bought a year end model necky zoar fits me.
I thought why not get me out the house and now my wife saids why dont you get the kayak out so I can get some house work done and you will come home in a better mood. Of couse she is right.
Is it expenxive it all depends on what you get out of it. MINE IS PEACE OF MIND AND NO STRESS FOR A FEW HOURS. It's make going to work that much easier. Are composites expensive only if you consider it too expensive for your budget. I have a QCC 400x and if it wasnt for the fact my mother made me promise that I would buy this kayak when she past away I would be still saving for it. Happy Mothers Day MOM!
PS If I had the room I would have gotten the 600 or 700
Barry
"never consider upgrading"
Fact: Most don’t upgrade.
Most buy a plastic whatever, based on price/comfort/impulse. From there they get it wet once or twice and realize it takes some amount of effort. Most of this effort is wasted lugging the damn thing around - the rest on really horrible arm paddling that wears them out in 1/2 mile - so the payoff isn’t enough for them to continue/get hooked/upgrade/etc. A good many also dump (with zero self rescue skills) or have other issues leaving a bad impression - and that’s the end of it.
This is not really any different from the 95% of exercise machines that end up being used as cloths rack, the dusty bikes in garages, etc.
I have all the proof I need and see it every time I paddle. Nearly all of the thousands of waterfront home here have some form of rec/SOT/canoe on their dock or in the back yard. Most sun are bleached and bone dry. This is on relatively quiet canals with year around warm water. All those boats and all this water and 9 out of 10 paddles, I’m the only paddler. The rest of the time, where I do meet other paddlers - half the time I already know them - and most importantly, they HAVE upgraded.
Yes, sea kayaking is a VERY small part of the total paddlesport market, but so are ALL upgraders/repeat buyers. The bulk of the market is one shot impulse buyers who won’t use that damn things much anyway. Yes, this does dumb down the market. It has to.
Doesn’t really matter to me though, at least equipment wise. I don’t seem to be buying hulls from those companies anyway. I know good boat designers/builders at smaller outfits, and with luck will become a half decent one myself someday.
The concern I have is the accidents attributed to “paddlers” or “kayakers”, where the kayakers are in the plastic tubs they find so cheap and easy to get on the water with that they have no thought as to safety and skills. A “true” sea kayak provides no such illusion, and encourages a different approach.
If these so called entry level folks are the bulk of the market - they are also the bulk of the incidents - and the drivers of stupid legislations and restrictions. Laws that force me to paddle where and how some dry foot bureaucrat looking to get votes thinks I should - not necessarily how I might chose to based on actual paddling experience. More dumbing down.
Once again I’m
with Greyak. Value judgements of “good”, “bad”, get used to describe an evolution of paddlesports. Things don’t stay the same, and it’s the old cliche that the only thing for certain is uncertainty.
I believe the harder core paddling market was saturated a few years back. There are only so many people interested in what some of us are. Even the specialty dealers started pushing the “rec” boats as it was easy margin. And hey, the industry recognized a new demand, and a new customer. Guess what? That new customer has a much bigger base than most of us here. So, I say it’s neither bad, nor good, rather an evolving market.
It’s all about boats that float and meet differing needs. More customers are better served by an innexpensive rec boat and there’s nothing invalid about that.
The internet has done as much to kill specialty shops as big boxes, so say friends in the specialty bus. People research on-line then order as cheap as possible.
There’s a lot going on here…too much to apply a simplistic answer to. I see it as “it”, not good or bad. Ten years from now it’ll look a bit different I think.
Agree envyabull
I have owned power vessels that require more in anual maintenance than a high end composite kayak! My Volkl skis were a grand! Relatively speaking kayaking is an innexpensive activity.
I guess for me if there is a downside to the plastic storm, its simply that sales folk may not educate consumers about the long term benefits of composite. But we have to remember that the margines for the shops are less on composite, and the composite manufacturers aren’t making much money either. I think we’ll see manufacturers going overseas for a composite product that can be priced at thermoform level. Consumers will get a strong, stiff, light composite boat for an affordable price. Epic, CD, numerous race boats, etc.
Some will do the predictable bashing of going abroad, but lets get real. Look at where your stuff is made. In my last Patagonia catalogue I read with amusement Fletcher Chouinards rant about cheap asian surf boards. I then went through the catalogue in search of USA made goods, and found a T-shirt!! Hmmmm…OK.