back to the "smaller person boat" topics

I just saw this on the UK Rivers Guidebook forum

THE PILGRIM Designed by Nigel Dennis.

Designed as a day / weekend kayak, and is ideal for the smaller person.

Smart move
NDK is really coming on these days. Nigel’s production is up and things are going well.

Looks like fun!
I sure hope this is going to start the trend towards smaller high performance hulls intended as day paddle boats for average sized individuals.

As a side comment - that deck looks awfully low, even though knee bumps are mentioned. Emphases on “looks”, as there are no dimensions provided.

Skeg control right on the deck seam is a curious decision.

Very good news
Though Nigel recognized the need for boats for smaller folk and women earlier than many and produced the Romany & Explorer LVs, they were simply smaller cockpits and lowered decks on the standard hulls.

I’m very glad that he now has a boat with reduced volume for smaller people.

I wonder when they will be arriving in the States?

a bit of GM syndrome though?

– Last Updated: Jun-24-09 11:45 AM EST –

I like it.

But I read this: The new Pilgrim will have an expedition version.

How about just letting the pilgrim be the pilgrim, let another existing boat in the fleet be an expedition boat for smaller people?

Sea Kayak Georgia has one!!
I can’t remember the length but the width is 19". Nigel said he designed it for smaller paddlers (obviously) but really geared it towards performance. It is not as stable as the Romany line (so I am told) but is faster.

They also have an Expedition version of the Pilgrim which is (obviously) an expedition kayak for the smaller paddler. Nigel said it will probably be ‘faster’ than the Explorer.

He also mentioned they might be dropping the Romany LV and replace it with the Pilgrim.

the Pilgrim line of kayaks
are the first kayaks designed by NDK that were built from the ‘ground up’ specifically for smaller people. As someone else mentioned the LV models were just big person kayaks with smaller cockpits and a lower deck.

Did you look at the link?
Says the Pilgrim will be replacing existing low-volume models. Looks like your approach was already tried.

Small persons: what do you think?
Interesting that all the responses to this topic are from males who are probably not potential end users of these kayaks.

I’d like to hear from peopl who’d be using them. What do you think?

These are truly new boats

– Last Updated: Jun-24-09 1:31 PM EST –

To doggedudu, don't get misled by the "LV" nomenclature for the Romany and the Explorer. Those are NOT low volume boats - they are the regular size of each with a lowered deck and small cockpit. I have one, and I am pushing the same volume hull as our 6'4" friend who has the Explorer HV. The latter is, similarly, NOT a high volume hull. They raised the deck and added knee/thigh bumps for bigger legs. Tho' with the higher deck one can stuff it with more gear - but it is all sitting in the same hull.

That has been the one serious complaint about the NDK low volume versions, which that they aren't. It wasn't an issue when they first came out because hardly anyone else out there was even trying to make a serious sea kayak that would provide good cockpit fit to a small paddler. So Nigel Dennis was, for many, the only game in town. However, since then we've had a whole series of boats that are now really sized for a small paddler - the volume, width etc has all been brought down to be proportional to the paddler. Force 3, Avocet LV etc, all are really small paddler boats.

This Pilgrim series is clearly designed to get Nigel Dennis caught up now, with a low volume day boat and expedition boat that can compete with these newer entries.

Personally, I think it's a great idea and would love to be in line to test one out.

And less stable than the Romany would be fine - there's lots of head room in that hull. Faster would be a huge improvement.

not as stable as the Romany line…
"…not as stable as the Romany line (so I am told) but is faster"

Few worthwhile sea kayaks are as stable as a Romany and many are faster. So neither is a surprise in this new boat.

Nigel is clear on his website about the nature of the Romany and Explorer LVs:

“The Romany hull is available in two deck sizes: Standard and LV.”

“The Explorer hull is available in three deck sizes: Standard, LV & HV.”

These new boats are sure to be in demand :wink:

On the other side the scale
the Romany Excel is NDKs move into a big person kayak that is designed specifically for larger paddlers - although it wasn’t built from scratch.

A friend paddled an Excel prototype in Wales and said it was ridiculously stable but still very maneuverable. My friend normally paddles an Explorer HV, but is getting an Excel as soon as he can.

I stand corrected

“small people” not “small women”

– Last Updated: Jun-24-09 2:53 PM EST –

Do I need to get a smaller icon to convince you I'm not 6' and 200#?

I spot a day hatch...and I like it.

sizing thing
on the post on the uk forum it mentioned two sizes…

one for a size 8 and one for a size 10…i am guessing that they are meaning a size 8/10/ SHOE and not body size…

“I happened across the Seakayakinguk website just now, and saw the announcement of the new Pilgrim sea kayak, designed for smaller folk, with one version for size 8 ladies, and one for size 10.”

Lower deck does = lower volume.
Unless you measure volume in a way other than cubic inches or gallons. If there is less space inside, it’s lower volume.

It may not = less hull contacting the water or change the profile of the boat that’s in the water with the same load, but it is lower volume.

Displacement Volume

– Last Updated: Jun-24-09 4:10 PM EST –

While it is certainly true that if you lower the deck on a boat you've decreased the total volume of the boat, the volume of hull you are pushing through the water remains the same.

For there to be a performance advantage to a 'Low Volume" version of a boat there should be a reduction in its displacement volume. Though volume can be taken out of a hull in different ways, it is usually accomplished by reducing the beam and sometimes the length of the hull.

For a small paddler, reducing the displacement volume can make an enormous difference.

Thanks. Accurate terminology helps
in these discussions.

UK Clothing sizes
Actually, I think the Size 8/10 has to do with how clothing is sized for women in the UK, and I think size 8 corresponds to a size 6 or possibly a 4 in the US. If it was shoe size, it’d be in metric.

Like anything else, though, if you’re a member of the “small folk” or “little people” (at least the PR didn’t say wee folk, but little people does conjure up images of Darby O’Gill…)tribe and you’re a lady whose dress size doesn’t correspond to the above, don’t despair, just try the boat as fit is so individual, just like it is with various women’s clothing manufacturers here in the States.

Besides, how many men unless they’re into lady’s clothing are a size 8/10?:slight_smile:

We have one, Excel, too.
For what it’s worth, Ed and I saw the new boat as it was being developed in Wales last fall, and at that time it was going to be an updated version of the Romany LV. Nigel showed us the development “plug” and explained the narrower beam, where the volume came out of the hull and the idea behind the knee/thigh bumps. Of course now it’s called the Pilgrim.

I’ve paddled the new version and it’s a hoot. My normal boat is an Explorer LV and my wife had the traditional Romany LV. The new hull is quite responsive and fun. Slightly less initial stability than the standard Romany hull and it’s great in the surf.

On the other end of the spectrum is the Romany Excel. I haven’t paddled that one as it’s way too big for me, but one of our customers bought one and has been quite pleased with the fit and manuverability. I think he was initially concerned it might be two wide, but he was/is quite happy with the boat and had pushed his boundaries more than he thought he would.

Like others have said, it’s nice to see a kayak designed from the beginning for smaller, lighter paddlers, and with the knee bumps, smaller can mean “tall and thin” in addition to just petite.

The best test, though, is does getting out and paddling it put a smile on your face, regardless of the design…

  • Tom

    Virginia Sea Kayak Center