One thing
I have not heard anyone mention but what about your legs? I was tought to peddle while paddling. I don’t always do this. But I find it helps in paddling longer distance and or bad weather. That and my legs don’t go to sleep or cramp. Oh and LesG here’s one for you. I am a right handed person that paddles left hand control. Haven’t quite figured out why but I can’t seem to paddle right handed. Also I roll better on my offside(left). Everything else sculling, draws, whatever works better on the right.(weird) I have to remember to change the feathering when I hand my paddle to someone or they knife the blade and take a bath.
Good Journey’s
Shawn
Thanks all…
for yet another educational, interesting and lively thread. I appreciate all of your inputs, tips and ideas.
There is an interesting section in the latest Kayak Touring 2004 which is a special issue put out by the Canoe & Kayak folks. It’s called Forward Stroke and is written by Greg Barton (pages 16-17). Actually not much text but some very good photo sequence shots of Barton executing a foward stroke. The photo sequences give views from looking directly at the paddler from the front, a top view and side view of a right side stroke. Good point Talon-- he does mention the use of foot pressure on the foot brace during execution of the right pull.
I’ve also read The Complete Sea Kayaker’s Handbook by Shelley Johnson. She puts a huge emphasis on torso rotation and even talks about the “Torso Tool” that her husband and a couple of other intructors thought up and use for students. Basically it’s a smaller diameter PVC pipe cut to a length just longer than the paddle shaft. The pipe is secured in the front of your PFD. If the student doesn’t use proper torso rotation throughout the stroke, the paddle will come in contact with the PVC pipe and the resulting clunk will tell the paddler that more torso rotation is needed. Has anybody ever tried this technique or seen it put to use??
Again, thanks to you all for sharing your paddling knowledge!!
Chip
Righty Lefty
Although I am right handed, when I first started paddling, I paddled left hand feather. My first paddle was a cheapie with flat blades so it wasn’t obvious which was the right way. When I got a spooned paddle and realized my mistake, I switched to right-hand control. It was not difficult for me to switch, but I hadn’t been paddling long so the habit wasn’t too engrained.
Even old schoolers like
Derek Hutchinson teach a stroke that is not parallel with the main axis of the boat, but goes out at a 30 degree angle much like a wing stroke (I think, never used one). Perhaps a little less outward going, but noticably not parallel.
You know we enjoy your devotion and dedication to the faster end of the sport, but that doesn’t mean the touring end stands still. It’s like triathaloning and road racing in cycling, there has been a lot of cross fertilization. Paddlers who are working hard on any aspect of the sport can learn from eachother.
heard about the torso tool
– Last Updated: May-08-04 1:22 PM EST –
Here is another aid. get milk cartons (1/2 gallon). get four of them, double them one inside aonther after cutting the ends off. Duct tape them to biceps and forearms (use waterproof first aid tape if you value the students). Now your elbows movements are highly restricted. Paddle.
I agree
What could possibly be wrong with turning your head. It can only open you up for more rotation.
Actually, he lives somewhere in
Monterey County:)
For me, there’s always work
to be done in perfecting the forward stroke. I have learned a lot from Brent Reitz’s video, revisit it every couple of months at least, and plan to take a class with him in June. I have also added a wing to my gear, although I haven’t spent much water time with them yet.
That said, I find torso rotation key with all paddling, but find that some other aspects of the forward stroke may be modifiable based on the circumstances. I don’t like to paddle with such a high angle stroke when touring longer distances, and I really prefer to paddle unfeathered when touring. I think it depends on what your are doing, your body and your temperament. I think Sanjay had a good point sometime back about physical differences that may contribute to feathered vs unfeathered preferences.
As an analogy, my gait is different depending on whether I am walking, jogging or sprinting. I see myself as potentially developing into a more greenland style paddler for touring, and using the wing and a high angle stroke when fitness paddling.
Head Turning
– Last Updated: May-06-04 11:42 AM EST –
On a trip a year or two back, we paddled through some rough, windy conditions. The guy who visually placed his blade, ie, turned his head, got seasick. No one else did.
Personally, I want to watch for birds and take in the scenery. A glance at the GPS or my destination point are all I want my eyes to be involved in kayaking. I think my arms and hands should be set on 'auto'.
fully rotate??
what do you mean by fully rotate? One of the most common problems I see are folks trying to copy a canoe blade stroke with a kayak paddle by making the blade follow the hull digging down deep at the hips. So I’ll suggest the person try to make the blade slice out the side so the paddle can release from the water cleanly and the effort is forward originating from a slightly wound up torso with the next stroke set up from the rotated torso. Every time I see someone bend their wrist at the end of the stroke to assist the release I’ll try to get them to move the paddle out to the side to release. There’s nothing about a euro paddle that makes it define my stroke,but I use a paddle that doesn’t have a dihedral or much spoon.
I’m not a racer,have only been in a couple races and taken one stroke clinic.
exactly
you may wear the same shoes but adjust your gait for the speed. I’ve settled on a 220cm LIghtning Offshore as my “do-all” paddle. I can paddle with a high angle when need be and drop my arms for lazy paddling when that’s needed. I don’t race. The thought that one HAS to have a wing paddle putting out 95% peak effort for efficient paddling is silly. In fact efficiency being defined as X calories to cover Y distance in Z time is a lower speed than the peak horsepower efforts possible with intense training and high horsepower specific equipment.
Greenland Style
Long distances hurt my shoulder. I was amazed at the difference it made when I went to a paddle with a narrower blade.
I wonder if a long Greenland paddle might be even better for me. I should have used Larrry’s while we we at the lake. I would like to try one.
Eyes are moveable
You can continue to look ahead while turning your head, unless you have some problem with your eye muscles. Head turning as a part of stroke form and visually placing the paddle are two different subjects.
not really
the paddle is attached to your arms, the force originates in your abdomen. If you fix your eyes on a moving object theres a likely hood that your body is going to become rigid to hold somekind of reference. Make your abdomen the fixed point and let everything else go where it needs to.
Not to imply that you were getting the wrong suggestions but a lot of teaching suggestions or devices are only used to get someone over a learning block,once you get through the device or learning technique is left behind.
It might be…especially if you end up
adding a sink to your fleet. I think Greyak used a greenland with the shearwater. Greyak are you eavesdropping so that you can give us some feedback on greenland paddles with a shearwater?
Larry lives fairly near to yoy. Maybe the two of you can rendevous for a short day paddle somewhere before Tahoe? Also, Mark in Santa Cruz, makes greenland paddles. I haven’t seen him post in a while, but his screenname is endoboy.
One of the WSK’ers loaned me a carbon greenland style paddle once to try on the way to Seal Rock, and I found it very interesting, although somewahat confusing. I wasn’t sure if I liked it or not, because it was so light and effortless:)I would think it would be less stress on the shoulder joint, but I can’t say for sure.
Iceman you have actually made
a really interesting observation here when you say,
" Watching the Brent’s video is evident that he hates the touring paddle.
At the biginning of the video, Brent uses a wing paddle and racing kayak for a couples of minutes, at that moment, his stroke is awesome."
When Brent starts to teach the forward stroke using a sea kayak and a touring paddle, his forward stroke is not that good. He starts to bend his arm and to hit the kayak constantly."
Maybe your observation points to the fact that the froward stroke as taught is geared towards racers and fitness paddlers, and that sea kayakers interested in touring might consider some modifications?
I think most day tourers are happy to acknowledge their debt to what they are learning about stroke effciency from elite athletes (or at least they should be!) But I think we also have to remember that these elite athletes have modified the gear and techniques of a centuries old means of transportation by indigenous peoples and outdoors enthusiasts.
A lot of my interest in learning good technique is based on my appreciation for the aesthetic of skillful movement, even if I never become very fast:) I admire graceful and coordinated athletes. Also, good technique does a lot to contribute to injury prevention, which is also very important for long term enjoyment of the sport.
Evolution!
– Last Updated: May-06-04 3:33 PM EST –
This is not about racing, fitness, or sea kayaking but about evolution. As everithing evolve, paddles and techniques also do.
The wing paddle and its forward stroke technique is the latest evolution of the kayak stroke that in time will be widely spread.
The problem arises because we are seeming "The forward stroke" as a unique technique.
Different techniques can be apply to go forward. For instance, GP paddles use one, and Wing Paddles use another. Even Derek Hutchinson teach his own technique as Peter said.
I am not saying that the wing stroke is better than then GP stroke of vice versa (or any other paddle). I say that during the last posts, the wing stroke was the technique described. The one taught by Reitz and Barton among others. Therefore, I support the idea that the "wing stroke" can't be fully done with standard paddle.
As a matter of fact, neither Barton not Reitz use a touring paddle, so how could you expect them to teach a technique for a standard paddle ???
I believe that when the Reitz's video was done they aimed the recreational paddlers and sea kayakers because of a wider market to sell it not because he likes to use a standard paddle or endorses it.
Therefore, if you want to use the Reitz's or Barton's technique, you need a wing.
Regards,
Iceman
Variety
"I see myself as potentially developing into a more greenland style paddler for touring, and using the wing and a high angle stroke when fitness paddling. "
Hey, that’s almost exactly what I was going to suggest based on your comments before that!
Like variety? High, low, fast, slow and even wing stroke - a good GP should make you happy for touring.
Give it a shot
I did and no longer use euros (but do have a wing).
Don’t assume it needs to be a “long Greenland paddle” either. My GP is 88" (223.5 cm). Not a long paddle by euro standards, and it’s actually on the longish side based on usual Greenland sizing for my reach (but still within norms for my size). I’ve seen many who carve their own start long - and over time end up back down to sizes that fit what is traditionally recommended. An overly long blade will give you similar issue you’d have with a large bladed euro.
My GP blade is 3.5" at the widest point - but it has as much surface area as my euro did as the blade is much longer. Narrower loom/closer grip is why GP is recommended for lower narrower kayaks. My SINKs beam is 21" (wide by Greenland standards - but they are smaller people!). My loom is 21" (sized to me - not the boat but that helps too) and my shoulders as an inch or so wider than the boat - so it’s a pretty good fit all around.
Note: I find frequently have my hands in the water with a GP (on purpose). It also drips on deck/into cockpit more (but mostly going slow - water flies off it at speed). If you are a dry hand sort of paddler you may not like it. I used to keep my hands wet with a euro somtimes to cool off and ease any friction so it was not an issue for me.
FYI - I used this GP with the Shearwater and found it worked well - but probaly the only SOT I’d do it with and that one’s pushing it. GP is much better when I’m lower to the water in my narrower SINK (the GP is what finally broke my SOT bias. It works, but it’s magic is wasted/lost on wide high boats).
Rambling, as usual… FWIW
an analogy
in bike racing it’s generally acknowledged that higher rpms are advantageous for acceleration, it may not be the most efficient as far as traveling X distance with Y powerbars (or Z O2) but for RACING it’s necessary. Ok,now for sprinting it’s NECESSARY to put out MAXIMUM horsepower,certainly efficiently,but MAXIMUM applied at the wheel, it’ll involve getting out of the saddle for the last dash, it’s not the most efficient but it’ll get the most HORSEPOWER to the wheel.
Ok,take it to the wing,it’s the most effective device for putting out MAXIMUM leverage on the water IF the motor can put out MAXIMUM HORSEPOWER.
But it’s not exactly the lightest or cheapest construction for a paddle and not the most forgiving blade shape for rolling/sculling,and certainly not common paddle type.
So the EVOLUTION you talk about is definately worthwhile for racing. For racers.