Cadence!!! not technique
What you are describing is cadence.
For long paddles, a lower number of stroke is done, and for short paddles, a higher is needed. However, the technique keeps been the same.
Low arms is synonymous of poor “forward stroke technique” according to Barton or Reitz not long distance.
Regards,
Iceman
Wing evolution??
Wing “evolved” for sprint kayaking. It was later toned down and adapted to other uses, as original designs required too much power to be practical over distance.
The wing paddle is very good at one thing - going fast. In it’s more recent smaller variations it works for touring, but still really shines with full power on (like you paddle!) and most folks don’t hold that pace over distance.
The wing paddle is not the be all end all of paddles design - nor is it even the pinnacle of technology. It is an offshoot aimed at a particular realm of specialization.
While there is indeed a set “wing stroke,” there is not such a thing as a a set “GP stroke”. All strokes work with a GP. I can use a “wing stroke” just fine with the GP. Works very well. The only real difference is the push hand crosses a few inches lower because of closer hand placement (like the Aussies paddle a wing!) around upper chest instead of chin/eye level.
Look at on-line videos of wing and GP sprint strokes. Extremely similar. Difference is the GP isn’t locked to just doing that.
I find the GP to me a much more advanced piece of gear with an incredible range of functionality. GPs were operating as airfoil type single vortex shedding blades before whites even knew what a kayak was. Do not assume traditional = primitive or crude.
"interesting"
Yeah, first time with a GP - especially the ultra light carbon - is different.
I think a GP is a bit of a commitment, like a wing. You have to put the old paddle down for a while and only use the GP. While anyone can use it to move the boat first try, the good stuff takes a little while to click. Not likely to get to that point from a test paddle. Takes a little mileage (mostly to unlearn the euro I think!). It’s not at all hard, just different. Well worth the time.
Shearwater/GP comments on other post - can be more specific if you’d like. Bottom line - works - but really too high and wide so you loose a lot of what the paddle can do. Best with the narrowest SINK you can handle.
Well, I am going to take my wing
to the class in June, so how 'bout I just ask him about modifying things for touring:) Seems easy enough.
Your post Iceman, and something I read by Reitz in Hullspeed, is what got me thinking about how some of the the things in the video might be modified for touring. I suspect that the principles of torso rotation, and using the big muscles in your core, hold true, no matter what paddle you’re using, and what your paddling goals are. I also suspect that you may be right about the video being an designed as an intructional video for rec paddlers, most of whom are interested in injury prevention and increasing their efficiency & speed for day tours in the 3-8 mile range.
BTW, I had my first on the water rowing class this week. I loved it! However, I don’t know what it will be like to row out of the harbor, and into the bay going backwards. I’ll find out next week.
Okay, I didn’t sleep well the last two
nights, so I keep returning to this discussion when I should be weeding or mopping the floor (YUCK!)…
How about this as a compromise, or collaborative way of thinking about paddling technique…
The wing paddle design allows for the greatest degree of torso rotation when paddling, but many of the basic principles of the “forward stroke,” as outlined by elite kayak racers, can be applied to variety of touring styles and paddles for more efficient paddling and injury prevention.
Stroke
Pam, The wing paddle forces you into rotation. The only way the wing will work properly is to keep the blade moving away from the boat with the leading edge as verticle as you can keep it.
Some other touring paddles are designed to work better at a lower angle. I found that the wing was playing havic with my shoulders and when I changed boats I no longer needed it to lean on to keep my balance.
You can use the wing stroke with any paddle, and the plus side it did teach me rotation… GH
Should you ever need to change careers
try “Mediator”! Not the first itme I’ve seen you step in to deal with conflict resolution L!
Really, I don’t think a compormise/middle groung/general undertanding is needed when everyone’s right (albeit from their own perspective).
Reitz video and GP
What I’m about to say will no doubt horrify wing paddlers and GP traditionalists alike, but here goes:
I bought the Brent Reitz tape AFTER switiching to a GP. What Brent teaches applies 100% (but is only one of many ways to use a GP).
Yes it’s basically a wing stroke, yes it can work with non-wings. Beginner tape? Good idea if they know about it. I still think people who paddle more than 10 miles at a shot are not the majority (especially not with beginners), and less than that you have a lot of room for bad form and still get by. The tape is for people who benefit from efficiency, regardless of other skill levels.
one more time
cadence, defined as tempo can vary regardless of the paddle or bike but when I describe a sprinter out of the saddle I’m talking about a different technique of cycling distinct from time trialing or mtn. climbing. That kind of riding requires cycling shoes and clip pedals.
Same with paddling,the wing paddle will transmit greater power more efficiently but it will require the trained physique to make use of it by applying that greater power.
Once the power output is out of those extremes ,other criteria can render the superiority of the wing moot,or a far forward plant with a wide range of rotation with lifted elbow.
Two Classes in One,
– Last Updated: May-06-04 9:39 PM EST –
Leaving so close to Reitz worths to take his class a couple of times over a year period in order to see how you are improving.
It might not be cheap; however, for someone that does not leave so close to him has to pay maybe 50% or even 70% of the Raitz's price to take a forward stroke class with "maybe" an instructor that does not have master the forward stroke technique him/herself.
If you take your wing, you'll get the real deal because this is that Brent uses and likes. Therefore, you will get both a forward stroke class and a wing paddle class for the same price :D awesome!
Regards,
Iceman
Reitz Video
– Last Updated: May-06-04 9:22 PM EST –
I have not watched but studied Reitz's DVD for quite a few hours, maybe if I sum them up a couples of days :D
The first part of it is the best (the movie). Using slow motion plus a close look to his technique, I was able to compare his stroke with (using three different monitors and a TV) Gardiner, Barton, Chalupsky, Liwoski, Brunett, and Rossi. Although his does not have the power that Liwoski has for instance, he has the technique of an elite paddler.
For what I saw and talked with other paddlers:
1) Sprinter/marathon paddlers hold the best technique. eg. Barton, Reitz, etc.
2) Surf ski paddlers like Gardiner and Chalupsky have a good technique but not as good. Ok, to cross the channel is needed more than a good and powerful forward stroke technique!!!
3) The big difference is the called "Chicken Wing." When the "Chicken Wing" is use with the help of the legs, the paddler is able to get the maximum power. Therefore, for what I was told and proved myself such a power is not always needed.
4) Beside the "Chicken Wing" Both 30 miler open water racers as well as a couples of minutes flat water ones use the same stroke. The wing forward stroke.
5) If you listen to Reitz but without watching the video, you will realize he is teaching a "pure" K1 forward stroke. I mean "pure" as the stroke used by olimpic kayakers.
6) If you watch Reitz but without listening to him, you will see the forward stroke of a Euro paddle. Why? He bents his arm constantly during the 30 minuts. To me, he is unable to perform as well as using a wing paddle.
Grayak, about GP, I can't talk. I haven't use them.
I gave my point of view between Euro and Wing because I have used both "a lot," so I can give my perception of both.
Anyway, as nowadays, we discuss Euro and Wing. 30 years ago, people used to discuss, wood, and glass / Euro paddle, etc...
Regards,
Iceman
PS: I truly believe that Sea Kayakers should be looking into the wing paddle as a way of improving stability in rough water instead of wider and wider boats as well as to move efficiently trough water :D
I just meant that for me there’s
kind of an intermingling betwen the different paddle types and styles. I have learned a lot about how to move more effeciently using the techniques described in the forward stroke video. I still have much to learn, and the wing design will force me to really utilize torso rotation to full advantage-which I want to do for more aerobic workouts, and for when conditions warrant it. However, I think I prefer to use a lower angle stroke when touring any great distance, unless paddling into a strong headwind. It just feels better.
I am actually really looking forward to Brent’s class, and it’s not terribly expensive. He has an all day clinic that he teaches different places, and he has a three hour class he teaches every week locally. But first, I have my roll class to get through-I do not relish the idea of being underwater(bugs my nose and eyes), but I really want to get the wet reentry and paddle float roll this season, if possible. Feels less intimidating than a roll. Sort of an intermediate step.
Personally, I feel like I have to learn this safety stuff, but I actually really enjoy learning and discussing matters pertaining to technique & style. We are all evolving:)
Thanks Greyak.
Pam, Try wearing a dive mask…
Commitment?
Interesting. This is a case of, literally, different strokes for different folks.
Someone else told me that to learn GP well, it was best to ditch the Euro and do all paddling with the GP. So there’s that commitment. And I agree, because the GP feels weird to me. (Might help if it were the right size for me, but it’d probably still feel weird.)
But with the wing, I took to it like a bird to a, uh, uh, a wing! I posted an earlier thread about the experience, how it took me by surprise by feeling so natural. Even more surprising was when I switched back to my regular (Euro) paddle right afterward, it felt awkward for a few strokes. Yet that’s the paddle I’ve been using for almost 2 years. You’d think it would have been the other way around.
But someone also told me that the “racers” letting the wing fly out to the side was similar to using GP. So now I am thoroughly confused. They feel so different.
'flying out to the side’
I started paddling that way around the time I started teaching and using a lightning offshore,it just made sense.
Would it be reasonable to say…
– Last Updated: May-07-04 12:38 PM EST –
that whether using a wing or standard touring paddle (and using the correct foward stroke style for that particular paddle) that there are fundamentals that should apply to both. Let's say for example--correct posture, and use of torso rotation. It seems that both of these issues are important no matter the paddle or stroke type.
As I continue to study this topic it looks to me that the biggest difference is how the paddle enters the water during the catch. For the power stroke (which I would think would go hand in hand with the wing paddle) is entered at a very steep angle on the catch (top hand is actually at or around chin level). For a touring paddle type forward stroke, the blade is introduced at a considerably flatter angle on the catch,however, the remainder of the stroke looks very similiar if not the same. Bottom line to me (be gentle I'm a beginner and still plead ignorance as I learn) it looks like the major difference between the paddles/strokes that go with them is the angle at which the blade enters the water on the catch.
One more thing I'm wondering-- could we say that the forward stroke used with a wing can be used to produce an effective forward stroke with a standard touring paddle, but not neccessarily visa versa???
evolution!
Maybe my view of history is warped but I thought the evolution of nautical propulsion went something like this:
hands/feet
paddles
oars
sails
steam engines
internal combustion engines
turbines
So in evolutionary terms it doesn’t matter what type of paddle you use because you’re still at a pre-historic stage of development.
I agree with the different strokes for different folks philosophy - so use whatever paddle works best for you. So far in my nautical adventures I’ve paddled with a single blade and a double euro blade, I’ve rowed with flat blades and spoons, I’ve sailed, and I’ve driven internal combustion engine and turbine powered watercraft. Before I’m done I hope to have the opportunity to paddle with a GP and a Wing, and drive a steamboat!
Great thread, but have several questions
Wow! As a beginning paddler who is constantly questioning my own forward stroke, I have learned a great deal from this thread. Thank you all! I do have a couple of questions though…
- I have heard mention on lower angle paddling vs. higher angle. Could someone please give me a definition in a nutshell of high and low angle paddling?
- Torso rotation. I have none! I feel completely unnatural when I try to rotate. Any advice on how to overcome this. Which leads me to…
- As I said, I’m brand new (4-5 short trips out) and have never paddled with anyone else. What I’ve learned, I’ve learned from this site and several books i’ve found. I’m a visual person as well and think seeing someone on a video would really help. Where can you find kayaking how to videos and which would you recommend.
Thanks for the help!
Forward Stroke
– Last Updated: May-10-04 6:10 PM EST –
As Brent says, "the forward stroke is the technique most used and less taught."
Most Sea kayakers will spend most of their time learning/practicing braces and rolls than the forward stroke even though 95% of the time we move forward.
Cdjordan,
The forward stroke as a technique using an Euro of a Wing might be one. However, the Euro does not allow to perform the way is taught by Greg or Brent.
Why?: For example, if you rotate your body on the ground, you will see that your arms create a imaginary circle, and you are the center of it.
Therefore, because the wing naturally try to move at about 45º of the boat, your body an straight arms are allowed to rotate.
That movement is not completely allowed by the Euro because it naturally move parallel to the boat. You might try to move it at about 45º of the boat, but it is not natural or efficient, so because you cannot fully rotate you have to bend your arms. In addition, if Brent (Elite Paddler) was bending his arms using an Euro, how could you think us (mere mortals) not to do it.
Therefore, one of the most important advante of the wing is that it allows to power the boat from the big muscle of your body. Second, the catch is awesome! It is so good, and it gives so much support that when the blade is on the water, it is not needed to brace.
Anyway, you and no one has to use a wing, but at least, it is important to understand to limitations of a Euro, and that the forward Stroke taught by Brent and Barton was not made to be use with an Euro. That is all my point.
wedusc97
At the beginning, you should get at least the Brent's and/or Greg's videos/DVD, and then, take some classes. If you take classes, take them from an actual/former coach, or even better, take them from Brent or Barton Clinics
For the Barton Video go here
http://www.epicpaddles.com/
This link will explain you the basic of the Brent's forwad stroke and how to get the video/DVD:
http://www.usawildwater.com/tech/010102.htm
Regards,
Iceman
3, 2, 1…
3. The two videos mentioned in this thread. I have the Brent Reitz tape. Very helpful. I have no doubt the Barton tape is good too. Get either or both.
2. Rotation? Try this basic exercise:
First: Paddle with your arms locked straight. It will feel awkward, but to move you will have to paddle with torso muscles and leg help/support. You will have to rotate to move the boat.
Second: Do the opposite. Paddle with your shoulders locked perpendicular to the boat - zero rotation - just arm paddling. After the first way this should now feel equally awkward.
Third: Bring it all together. Torso for power - arms to guide the blades. Smooth and fluid motion.
- Instead of low vs. high - think of it as a continuum of possible angles from horizontal to vertical. All angels have some use. Speed/efficiency tend to be up when the paddles up (wing as Iceman describes needs to be pretty vertical to work properly). Lower offers a more relaxed stroke or allows more sweep component for turning/control. Drop the “vs.” from your thinking.
The other option is to do it the hard way - paddle so far your arms start failing and you have to use torso! Mileage is a pretty good teacher - poor technique won’t be able to go the distance.