to MCEB: Your Pamlico tandem is completely appropriate for the Pine Barrens, slow rivers and lakes that you and your spouse frequent. But I would challenge you to launch it into the Atlantic off Gloucester or Cape Cod. This is my whole point.
The places where people ask to try my kayaks are broad large volume rivers and windy lakes for the most part, waters where people struggle with the limitations of rec boats.
I am not anti-rec boat. In fact I own a chubby 12' Puffin folder that is a great craft for spur of the moment day trips moseying around secluded waterways and birdwatching. But no way would I take it out in the ocean.
Of course he shouldn't be in the ocean or any large body of open water with a rec boat. Maybe just some friendly advice like "oh by the way don't take that kind of boat in the ocean, stick to smaller lakes and ponds" and we'd be all good.
Often we get endless go take lessons, spend hundreds of hours learning skills, buy high-end sea kayaks or you're wasting your money type of answers to all the newbies who want to buy a rec boat and play on a pond and then mis-speak some word in their question (I'm assuming his ocean comment was a mis-statement).
It just always strikes me as such an unfriendly welcome. I get the whole safety aspect, no one practices more safety than I do in a rec boat. I guess maybe there is a nicer way to bring it up. That's just my opinion.
re: welcome "All I can say is wow, way to kill the guys spirits and scare him. "
Don’t really see how it serves the OP to let 'im go out on the ocean in a boat that may well get him into a lot of trouble out there. =[
Fact is, ocean kayaking can be a dangerous activity if you’re not prepared, and unprepared ppl can and do lose their lives occasionally doing it. That’s just the facts.
When we have discussions about paddling far from shore in cold water, and someone says “Hypothermia is a killer, always dress for immersion!”, does anyone ever say in response, “Oh, way to scare the guy”?. And if they do, is that really a credible response?
IMO, you’ve got to level with ppl about the risks they’re taking on, and about what they really need in order to be safe out there. To do less could help set someone up for some pretty dire consequences.
Yes, the Conduit 13 does seem to be well equipped for a boat in that price range. Kudos to them for stepping up to fill that gap between bare bones rec buckets and the smaller touring and crossover yaks. It' certainly a better value than having to outfit a standard rec boat with flotation bags, cockpit padding and deck rigging to make it safe and manageable. Perimeter deck lines could be easily added with a set of pad eyes and some braided perlon.
Still, it's 26.5" wide and you'll note that Perception is careful to describe it as a:
"A great boat for touring lazy rivers or doing some exploration on smaller lakes."
It's still a bit short, wide and flat bottomed for the open ocean or rough water -- I'm sure they are aware of that.
Perception Sport is a store brand that was set up purely to produce mass market boats for Dick's Sporting Goods. Even the longest boat they produce(the 14'x 24.25 Rhythm which still has no perimeter lines) has this proviso on use:
"design that offers performance and maneuverability for lakes, slow rivers, or even waves"
They are clearly aware of the liability they might face from anyone who ran into trouble taking one of the boats out in the ocean, Great Lakes or other exposed lumpy water. Its a CYA spec if I ever saw one. I'm willing to bet the lack of perimeter lines was a strategic decision to avoid any suggestion these would be seaworthy.
The main performance aspect of this boat line (besides price) seems to be "stability", obviously an attempt by Perception and their vendor to play into the most common MISperception among the uninitiated about kayaks (the dreaded "tippiness"). Naturally, flat water "comfort" translates into rough water problems. Didn't notice any transverse cross sections for any of the 31 models they make. But I can predict what they look like: flat as a pancake.
Of course they also need to be low key about the Sport line to justify the higher prices on their regular Perception models. Note the usage spiel for their 15' x 24" Expression:
"offers forgiving handling and stability expected of a touring design with the performance of an expedition kayak. ....... the progressive rocker offers maneuverable handling, so you can paddle confidently in tight, technical waters and coastlines."
all very true… …but consider that there’s plenty of ppl out there who’ll only spend around 500 dollars on a boat, and want to buy something from a store new, i.e. no Craigslist or eBay.
Given that, compare the Conduit to what else is available at the price. On safety alone, it’s quite an improvement over your typical, single bulkhead, minimal or no rigging rec kayak.
Heck, the Conduit cockpit is even small enough to fit a Seal neoprene sprayskirt. Try that with a Pungo or Pamlico.
Yes, yes, obviously it’s still not going to measure up to a true ‘stud’ sea kayak (and the OP shouldn’t be under any illusions there, as that could get them into trouble).
But given the direct alternatives at the price level, complaining overmuch about that is a bit like grousing that one’s Ford Focus can’t outcorner a Porsche. =[
What I would hope is that the Conduit sets a trend in safety ‘must haves’ at the price point. Then the crappy unsafe ‘rec kayaks’ will be confined to the sub-$500 market.
I agree (with some reservations) with the improvement in features offered by the Dick’s Sport line and them filling in that void with a moderately priced kayak with safety features.
I know I am a bit grudging about it because I wish it had been somebody other than Dick’s who thought of this (partnering with Perception for the cheaper house line, as Mad River has done with them for canoes). The other large retailers like Beans, EMS and REI, have such limited choices – all middle of the road rotomolds. I’ve complained before about their “one size fits all” bland and “safe” packages. But at least they run outings, offer instructional classes and have at least a few salespeople knowledgeable about paddling and gear selection. I have yet to meet a Dick’s clerk who knew squat. (indeed, even finding a Dick’s clerk on the floor is a challenge, let alone one who knows a kayak from a canoe).
On the corporate level they’ve clearly seen the value of mass marketing somewhat better and more competent boats in the lower price ranges. But they are making no attempt to really serve the paddling community and promote the sport other than shoveling the boats out the door by the trainload.
I guess I should be happy that people who shop there will have the opportunity to have better boats but I feel like Dick’s doesn’t really earn that business due to their lack of tech support and instruction options. It would be nice if the excellent independent dealers also had access to more moderately priced “starter” kayaks.
As I’ve said before, the “Walmartization” of paddle sports…
You don’t paddle open ocean At least, according to your profile. The OPer indicated this was a possibility, and certainly lives within easy reach. Willowleaf is responding with solid concerns, and has lived plenty long enough to have found out some of this via mistakes. I am the same age and I have some of that kind of learning.
The longer more equipped kayaks are about safety, not elitism. And they can easily be gotten in plastic versions, used and much cheaper.
threat to independents I predict this Perception Sport line at Dick’s is going to hurt the small indie dealers that I have always counted on for kayaks and gear and instruction. There used to be a clear line between the rudimentary and clunky yaks and canoes from the big boxes and the more costly but much better equipped boats at the indies.
I fear that now the people who would have paid $800 to $1000 at an independent dealer for a Wilderness Pungo or Tsunami, or Venture Easky 13, or Perception Carolina 14, will now detour to Dick’s for a $550 Conduit 13 or $700 Rhythm 14. And since these are “proprietary” models nobody else can offer to price match the identical boats.
The independents are going to spend a lot of time with customers educating them on boat selection and fitting them in various models, only to have the shopper drive over to the nearest mall and whip out the plastic for what looks like (but is not) the same kayak in the P-Sport line.
We will all be the poorer in the paddling community when these small shops that have served us for decades fold under the onslaught of volume-buying big box stores like Dick’s who will NEVER offer the same services and will most likely drop kayaks like a hot potato as soon as they saturate the market and feel the mass popularity wane.
Just on general economic principles I will have a hard time recommending anyone I know buy a kayak from Dick’s, even one with better features. Argue “free market” all you want: Every action has an outcome.
new vs used "…but consider that there’s plenty of ppl out there who’ll only spend around 500 dollars on a boat, and want to buy something from a store new, i.e. no Craigslist or eBay."
This is true but very unfortunate. I can understand the hesitation of trying to judge if a used boat is okay but still most newer paddlers can benefit a lot from used vs new. Not only can they get a more able boat used but they can later sell it at near (or even above) the price they paid. This eases the pain of worrying if you bought the best boat for you since it’s easier sell and move to another boat later. I have friends that have found some nice ocean class fiberglass boats for as little as $300 (rare but still…).
The 4 R’s Yup, I’m of the 4 - R’s school on most everything. Re-use, Recycle, Repair, Re-purpose. All but 2 of my present kayaks were bought used, and those 2 were purchased from local indies. But I do patronize my local dealers for accessories, paddle clothing and gear that I can’t find used or make myself.
I have bought and sold half a dozen used kayaks in the past 5 years as well as steering friends and family to good deals when I find them. In most cases I resold boats for what I paid for them – in a couple of cases a bit more since I had re-outfitted or repaired them. It really is true you get more bang for the buck and it is easier to trade up when you buy used decent grade used boats.
I think it helps people’s initial skills too, to learn in a more traditional style kayak (or canoe). Kinda like when my dad refused to let my younger siblings use the “training wheels” that were popular when I was a kid. He saw how I couldn’t get the feel for balance or for leaning and naturally countersteering turns when the trainers essentially turned the bike into a 4-wheeled platform. I still have a faint scar on my chin from skidding across the top of a concrete wall on my maiden ride without the stupid cheater wheels on the back. I had not gotten the sense of how a bike handled with that crutch and it took some time to unlearn the bad habits it promoted.
Same with flatbottomed barge-y “kayaks” with gaping cockpits and cupholders. I think for most people if you start out mastering the slight uneasiness from the feel of a narrower boat, you can quickly become comfortable with it. I’d even argue that people who become habituated to a wide rec boat can have an even harder time than a complete newb adjusting to the feel of a real touring or whitewater boat when their interests expand beyond lily dipping.
It’s a journey… if you are serious about the sport.
I started out about 11 years ago thinking I would drop a few hundred bucks. Then I came to this site, then I visited some outfitters, tryed out a lot of boats, listened to a lot of advice, took classes, rented boats that I liked, and ended up spending a whole lot more than I expected. I don’t regret it a bit though. It have had a lot more fun than if I plunked down a few hundred dollars. I still have my original boat, I can paddle it in any conditions I want. I entrust my life to my gear and my skills, and my life is priceless. I recall one time I went out on a nice little paddle with some friends. Coming back, The weather started getting rough, the tiny ship was tossed. If not for skills and the right gear, I would have been at the mercy of someone to fish me out.
Answer the question that the OP asks It happens too often that responses do not answer the OP question. Giving unwanted advice is just not acceptable.
int his case, the unwanted advice is the advice to change his plans, not the advice to change his boat. He specifically asked about his boat choice, did he not?
“oh by the way don’t take that kind of boat in the ocean, stick to smaller lakes and ponds” does not answer the question of this being a good choice for what he specifically said he wanted to do.
“Don’t get that boat” is exactly the advice he asked for although he may not be happy to hear it.
Just answering the question… “Note* I plan on using this for a good workout in local ponds, lakes, and occasionally the ocean. I was wondering if this particular kayak is ideal for my planned usage.”
Nope. It is not ideal for that specific usage.
It is far from ideal and maybe dangerous in the ocean although that depends on what “ocean” you are planning on visiting, where on that ocean you are going, and how prepared you can be in all ways other than with your choice of kayak.
Even my kid upgraded from a 10 foot boat to a 13 foot Necky Manitou just for our local lake that we always paddle in calm conditions and she was 14 when she did that transition. The 10 footer was just too slow to paddle within any group. Do you plan on always going solo?
Oh. I haven’t taken it on the ocean (or even very rough water, for that matter) but it handles exceptionally well on flatwater, and is very stable. (Granted, you cited the beam). It seems like it would do very well in waves. It is more of a crossover than a touring kayak, but for those who don’t want to (or can’t) spend more, I think it’s a pretty good choice. It is a renamed Dagger Catalyst, and Dagger sold it as a touring kayak.
"Note* I plan on using this for a good workout in local ponds, lakes, and occasionally the ocean. I was wondering if this particular kayak is ideal for my planned usage."
The "occasional" ocean comment may have came from being naive and not understanding dangers of the ocean in that type of boat or was maybe was just an off-the-cuff statement so his "plans" where highly flexible. The rest of sentence clearly focuses on "local ponds and lakes" and "workouts" which appear to be his main focus for which the 'crappy rec boat' in question is fine for as long as they are reasonable sheltered bodies of water.
"Unwanted advice is just not acceptable"....oh boy ROTFL
“seems” isn’t reality "seems like it would do very well in waves". What do you base this prediction on? Read up on primary and secondary (or final) stability in hull design.
Have you been out in substantial waves in any kayaks? The characteristics that make a boat stable in flat or rolling water make it pretty uncomfortable and even liable to capsize in steep waves. Kayaks designed for the sea aren’t built the way they are just to be fast. The cross sections (that make them feel “tippy” to novices) are what keep them upright in rough water. If a wave hits you broadside in a beamy flat boat it will lift it parallel to the wave face and if you aren’t prepared with a quick brace you can go over in heartbeat. Even if you don’t capsize you will have to react with a brace and shift in weight – this makes it hard to concentrate your effort on forward motion.
But a boat with a rounded or vee’d hull profile will stay fairly level and ride up over the top of even a steep wave. I’m not saying this in theory, I’ve experienced it. That’s why I sold my first kayak – at 25" it was too wide and the semi flat hull made for an unnerving and exhausting ride in moving open water.
Beware of presuming that the behavior of a boat in calm or moderate waters will predict how it feels in more dimensional conditions.
I was out in my sea kayak in a somewhat protected bay along the southeast shore of Lake Michigan some years ago on a what started as a nice summer day with little wind and almost glassy water. There were about a dozen other kayakers out too, half of them in rec boats. As often happens on the lake, in the early afternoon it suddenly got dark and gusty as a small storm materialized out of nowhere. It wasn’t particularly violent and there was no lightning so I didn’t head into shore right away and was kind of enjoying playing with my boat in the lumpier water. The other boaters started heading to shore. I heard some shrieking from a pod of 3 rec boats I had passed earlier that were paddled by some teenaged girls and looked their way. They didn’t seem to be making much progress so I paddled in their direction. When I got closer I realized two of them didn’t have paddles. It turned out one of them got abruptly thrown sideways by a breaking wave and she freaked and dropped her paddle and grabbed the gunwales. Her friend paddled over and extended HER paddle for the first girl to grab and a second wave hit both of them broadside and knocked the second paddle away. They were being tossed around like rubber ducks in a washing machine and were totally terrified. They were not that far from shore but couldn’t make any headway in that surf zone flailing sideways. I told the girl who still had her paddle to head straight for shore and try to stay straight and surf the waves in, ruddering with the paddle. meanwhile the first girl capsized but it was warm water and she could swim so I sent her to shore and told her I would try to bring in her boat (a rental).
By now another kayaker had joined us and I gave the second girl my spare paddle and asked him to stay with her. I spotted one of the paddles and went off to retreive it and then caught up with the errant kayak and awkwardly steered it towards the pair. The guy helped me tie it to my stern and we headed in. The conditions were fun for him and me in our “seaworthy” boats but really terrifying for the rec boaters. These were only 2 to 3 foot waves and 30 mph gusts – I’ve seen sudden storms create 5 and 6 footers on the Great Lakes within minutes.
Offshore of a beach north of where that incident took place is a broad shallow sand bar. I was there one day (not paddling but watching from atop a dune) when a large power yacht cruised by parallel to the beach. There were a bunch of kayakers (all short wide rec boats and one inflatable) out between the yacht’s path and the waterline. I watched the wake roll out from the yacht and then rise like a tsunami when it hit the sand bar – it hit the kayaks like a bowling ball knocking over pins and all but one of them flipped. I admit it was funny to watch (the water was 85 that day and the water over the bar was only up to their waists so they were in no real danger). But it illustrates what happens to wide flat boats in sharp waves.
Ok I didn’t really base my presumtions on more than the fact that I can edge it very well, and I figured that as long as I keep it bow forward, it will handle some waves.
Sorry to be so ignorant, I shouldn’t have presumed that much.
apology Sorry, didn’t mean to be harsh. (aggravating day at work.)
Being able to edge is good – you clearly have a better feel for your kayak than many paddlers if you are comfortable with that. Doesn’t change the basic hull behavior, though.
You can’t count on keeping your bow pointed into the waves – most any boat, no matter how wide, can be plowed into a wave bow first, but it is not always possible to do so. The dangerous waves are the ones that come at you from behind or surprise you from the side.
We have a couple of wave pools in my town – I’ve often thought it would be cool to be able to reserve them for kayak training.