HeeHee, Overstreet, I notice you aren’t saying whether that’s good or bad!
Oh, and I’m not an engineer but I seem to have some engineer genes.
The local dealer that I’m buying the kayak from also sells Malone racks so I’ll be checking out their Stinger to see if it works with my Forester. I honestly think I may be overthinking the whole thing a bit. I’ll likely grab a Thule WaterSlide just to be safe as well.
@Guideboatguy said:
@PaddleDog52 said:
@Guideboatguy said:
@PaddleDog52 said:
@Guideboatguy said:
@Rookie said:
@Guideboatguy said:
. I’ll buy the stuff if I have to, but I will never say “you get what you pay for” because that isn’t remotely close to being true.
I have to disagree with you there. Quality and warranty counts. As an example, Thule and Kokatat are more expensive up front, but their products are high quality and they back them with their warranty.
To me, multiplying the cost of the stock items by as much as ten times that of the already-profitable retail cost from any reasonable source is not necessary just to pay for warranty service. They do it because they can.
Except your not running a business when you’re at a hardware store buying pipe.
I will try to make this even more simple. Nothing about what I said implies that Yakima should be buying their pipe from a hardware store. They should do exactly as any business that size would do, which is to get the stuff wholesale by the truckload (at far less cost than the retail prices I suggested using as a reference for the finished product). I’m only saying that, regardless of where they get it, adding a coating of plastic to the outside surface (probably at pennies per lineal foot) does NOT increase the pipe’s retail value by a factor of several times.
Depends what it’s coated with? More cost to them being in business than a coated pipe. Some plastics roast up in the sun fast. Great if people make their own and are happy.
Well, you totally missed the point and also inferred one point that was never even mentioned, but so it goes. For me, when there are loads of examples in the realm of marketable products to show what’s a reasonable markup on components made of everyday materials, and then we have this example where the markup is unusually high because in this case the market allows it, it’s okay to simply acknowledge that in a case like this, free-market products are priced much higher than can be explained by “you get what you pay for.” Making up your mind that it’s not possible isn’t a very good argument to the contrary.
You don’t know if their products are much higher than can be explained you don’t know their cost.
I guess everyone is not buying cheaper products or Yakima wouldn’t be around.
I gave you one perfectly good example that you can check for yourself (again, making up your mind that it ain’t so is not a basis for argument).
As to your second statement, at no time did I say people can or should buy cheaper products. It’s been well covered in this thread that Yakima and Thule make extremely good products and they are in a class by themselves (and you should not imply that somehow I said otherwise). That should make it clear enough why people go to them for specialized rack needs. All I have said is that the fact that they have that particular segment of the market pretty well cornered is the reason that they can charge what they do for some extremely simple components that ought to cost far less. On the other hand, I have not said anything about the prices of really well-engineered parts designed specifically to attach to a myriad of different roofs. The fact that they have to gall to charge as much as they do for very certain extremely simple parts is what irks me, and that’s as far as it goes.
Gall? Like I said you have zero idea of their profit margin.
It is demand that decides price point, not cost of production. People charge what their market will bear.
Though I’ve been Thule loyal during my kayak hauling years, that is largely by accident in that a friend gave me my first Thule set gratis (I had the same Volvo as his late wife’s) and once you start buying geegaws for one brand you end up sticking with it. Thule could do better with their products – I get so sick of replacing the plug ends on the bars which pop off way more easily than they should. And they fail to coat the insides of their crossbars and I have had them rust out from the inside.
I do agree that aero bars are a waste of money and a pain to attach things to. I would not use them. My Santa Fe came with aero style cross bars and I mounted a Thule rack above them. I have never noticed a noise issue with square Thule bars. I have mine spiral wrapped with braided dacron cord, which probably helps.
Demand does not always decide price point.
Guideboatguy,
Keep in mind that the your perspective is different as you don’t view fabricating a system as an obstacle. From what I’ve read you rather enjoy MacGyver-ing a custom rack along with other mechanical engineering projects. In contrast, my opinion only from my dealings with paddlers whom are usually vehicle owners, most would viscerally object if I told them “Drill and both this through your roof with a little sealant so it doesn’t leak.”, presenting them with a bar, bracket to be applied to their $$$$$ new vehicle.
See you on the water,
Marshall
The Connection, Inc.
Hyde Park, NY
845-228-0595 main
845-242-4731 mobile
Main: www.the-river-connection.com
Store: www.the-river-connection.us
Facebook: fb.me/theriverconnection
What’s involved in the cost of manufacturing and retailing a product?
What cost are involved even in selling retail products from a physical store?
Some forward thinking car company should produce a long, flat-topped vehicle (like a 1990’s Volvo wagon on steroids) with an integral rack that slides back on rails fully to the rear of the vehicle and drops towards the ground with pull out legs that you can load with whatever you want/need at waist level, then lift up the end and shove it back up onto the roof on nice ball-bearing casters. They could call it the “Geezer Gear Hauler.”
Speaking of geezerness, honestly, I miss the days of having a vehicle with rolled steel rain gutters to which I could handily attach Quick’n’Easy brackets. Most folks on here are probably old enough to remember those. $15 to $20 a pair and with a router, some carriage bolts and a couple of pressure-treated 2 x 4’s or some galvanized channel you could make whatever kind of rack you needed
@wgb113 said:
It sucks that these roof rack setups are so expensive for what is really a simple product.
I agree. I considered and tried a number of different products and ended up with Thule square bars and Glide n Set cradles from Craigslist for $125. To protect the car I use a rolled up towel strapped through the hatch. Good bars are essential but everything else is optional as long as you at least use foam pipe insulation or something similar to protect the kayak from the rack…
@willowleaf said:
…
with an integral rack that slides back on rails fully to the rear of the vehicle
Subaru Outback Touring model comes with nearly full length Thule rails.
“Geezer Gear Hauler.”
Good idea but needs a more youthful name.
@willowleaf said:
Some forward thinking car company should produce a long, flat-topped vehicle (like a 1990’s Volvo wagon on steroids) with an integral rack that slides back on rails fully to the rear of the vehicle and drops towards the ground with pull out legs that you can load with whatever you want/need at waist level, then lift up the end and shove it back up onto the roof on nice ball-bearing casters. They could call it the “Geezer Gear Hauler.”Speaking of geezerness, honestly, I miss the days of having a vehicle with rolled steel rain gutters to which I could handily attach Quick’n’Easy brackets. Most folks on here are probably old enough to remember those. $15 to $20 a pair and with a router, some carriage bolts and a couple of pressure-treated 2 x 4’s or some galvanized channel you could make whatever kind of rack you needed
I didn’t remember them (am old enough though) but they still have them. https://www.nrs.com/product/3200/quick-n-easy-car-top-racks-set
I actually do have rain gutters on my 1995 F350 but have Yakima on it. Wish I knew about them back then.
I’ve had my current set of Yakima bars for 15 years, my previous set was given to my son in law to carry his SUP. I looked at Thule originally and had reservations about the square bars. I have an engineering back ground and know that round bars are inherently stronger than square bars. I suspect that my round Yakima bars will last me until I can paddle no more.
I don’t care to pay the extra fees for “accessories” on overloaded “touring” and “deluxe” car models. I can have my choice of after-market goodies for far less than what those geegaws add to the base sticker. My new Mazda CX5 came with nothing but the basics (engine, 6-speed manual stick, seats, steering wheel, AC, FM radio/CD player and windshield wipers) and was under $20K. The “deluxe” version would have lost me the preferred transmission and only gained about $800 worth of add-on “candy” yet cost me $3000 more. Caveat emptor on the dealer lot. I did drop $175 on the rubber rear hatch “tub” floor mat (a necessity for muddy paddling gear) and the optional lateral roof bars which I needed to attach the Thule brackets.
@shiraz627 said:
Why urinate your money on J cradles which are hard to load single handed. Get some saddles, load from the rear and save your back.
This. Also - wow did this thread go off the rails.
And I agree that you should have a boat in mind first. The quality of saddles you want for a $299 rec boat is likely to be different than a $3500 fiberglass boat. That said, here are the easiest components I use on a '16 Outback.
I hate J cradles with a passion. Always have. So I use Yakima saddles with SweetRolls on the rear. These work fine on the Subaru stock bars. To make lifting the boat easier I use a Thule WaterSlide pad and an old piece of my wife’s foam yoga mat. Basically, I get the boat to the rear of the car and set it down. Put the WaterSlide pad on the rear bar and let it hang over the tailgate, then put the yoga mat under the stern of the hull (an old piece of carpet works great for this too). I can then pick up the bow of the boat and lift onto the rear of the roof. It sets down on the WaterSlide and the hull is protected from the parking lot by the yoga mat. Then I just go to the rear, lift the stern, and push forward up the rollers and onto the saddles.
For strapping the boat down, a folding step stool is key. I use a plastic stool like this one: https://www.amazon.com/Cosco-11-905PBL4-Molded-Folding-Platinum/dp/B002DPVAUY. I have also used a taller Harbor Freight version: https://www.harborfreight.com/step-stool-working-platform-66911.html
In the end, lots of people can lift their boats, but why strain the back? Plus - there will always be wind when you’re at the lake or ocean, and sometimes it blows hard enough to make slinging a 50 or more pound boat a real pain.
Good luck.
So finally got around to pulling the trigger on all of this and here’s what I’ve found if anyone’s interested.
Car: 2017 Subaru Forester XT
Kayak: Vibe Sea Ghost 110
Roof Rack: Malone square bars on factory side rails.
Carrier: Malone SeaWing + Stinger combo
Load Accessory: Thule WaterSlide
The Malone bars went on easily. I have the rear bar pretty far back to maximize the Stinger’s reach as far as possible since the XT has a spoiler. The spoiler’s not the beefiest so I’m hoping it all holds up. The WaterSlide goes under it and provides some added padding.
The Seawings themselves are rather grippy. It can be difficult to push the boat into position once it’s in the front saddle. The straps included with the combo were too short so I had to buy 12’ straps that, in the back, are still rather close.
The biggest disappointment is that the total height once on the car does not allow me to drive into or out of the garage. My garage door height is only 7’ and the way that the boat sits in the saddles does not allow the rudder at the rear to clear.
I ordered a ceiling hoist system to install this week and will be building a scupper cart as well. If I were to do it over again I might have gone with the Saddle Up Pro instead of the SeaWing/Stinger combo. It seems a little more low-profile when carrying the kayak that might give me the few inches I need from a clearance standpoint.
Rudder up dosen’t clear.
So what about rudder down?