power boat
Seeing the PB was on the right doesn’t that give him the right of way anyways?
As has been pointed out, “yes”,…
– Last Updated: Apr-20-10 11:34 PM EST –
... but as also was pointed out, it was the powerboat's change of course that made this an issue. You can do all the right things to make sure you are not in another boat's path as it draws near, but none of that matters after the other boat does something you could not have predicted. Giving way to another vessel only means not putting yourself in a position to obstruct that vessel (there's no need to yield to another boat if it won't reach the point where its path crosses yours until long after you are gone - otherwise you could never legally cross a channel at all unless no other boats were in sight). What do you do when the other boat's "path" becomes different? In this case, I guess you "back up".
I don’t want to "rewrite the colregs"
That is a misrepresentation of my position. I said the colregs should be revisited to make it clear. Like they did with PWCs when jet skiis came along.
No one is claiming special rights. That’s a straw man that you are constructing. Rather, I question where kayaks fall in the grand scheme of things. It’s clear to you; that’s good, but it’s not clear to some people in the CG themselves. My USCG class was in the USCG station taught by retired USCG. Active CG were in the room. No one had the answer.
NateHanson asks a good question. He says, “It seems to me that it’s unclear where kayaks fit. Are you saying that Colregs considers a Kayak a ‘power-driven vessel’?”
You say “Essentially yes, … just another vessel”. But that wasn’t his question. Sail boats are vessels and power boats are vessels, but–the sailboat under sail–they have different stand on rights. NateHanson asks if the Colregs consider kayaks a ‘power-driven vessel’. They do not. They are silent as to kayaks.
- a vessel not under command;
- a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver;
- a vessel engaged in fishing;
- a sailing vessel.
- power-driven vessel underway
You interpret them as saying that kayaks are a power-driven vessel. And for all I know you may be right. But your interpretation is just that, an interpretation. It’s not spelled out explicitly in Rule 18 itself, and it defies common sense, since ‘power driven’ has an accepted meaning. As when a sailboat changes from wind to power.
You say kayakers should take the courses. I agree. But I took the courses, salty. It shouldn’t be so confusing. The object is to avoid collisions. The rules should be clear.
Not trying to be contrary. Not trying to raise your hackles. Not trying to claim any special rights. Just wish the CG would make things a little more explicit. Since it’s not obvious that a kayak is a power boat.
big sigh
I don’t really want to get into this. But a few basic, practical points:
Many power boaters just get used to passing on their port. Sounds like a local who knew he had plenty of depth for his draft and was just doing what came natural.
Second, don’t play the COLREGS game unless you are a strict student. Because, essentially, the number one priority is to play it safe. A non incident is 1000000% better than an incident where you are “technically” correct. As pleasure boaters in a very vulnerable craft, your ability to assert your right is extremely limited compared to commercial or even recreational vessels jockeying for position.
Pilot
Yes, the wake came over my bow and would have compromised my kayak if I had not had been using a skirt. There would had been maybe 100 feet to shore and half that to the edge of the channel. No had I not yielded and back paddeled he would have passed me mid-ship.
The boat was a typical open bow power boat operating at full speed. When I first noticed the boat he was approaching on the (my) right side of the channel but cut diagonally across the channel so that when he passed he was on the left side of the channel. Had he stayed on the side he was originally on he would have passed over 200 feet to my rear.
You’re making it too hard
– Last Updated: Apr-21-10 9:40 AM EST –
Your argument is that the USCG should make special mention of "kayaks" and because they have not done so in the pecking order it's OK to assume the same or similar priveledge as a sailing vessel under sail? Your other point is that because kayaks are slow they should also have a restricted status?? BTW, Jet Ski's are just power vessels with no special status, albeit operator requirements.
You're not alone in thinking the way most paddlers do, but it's flawed logic, and WRONG. It's why I take the time to try to educate fellow paddlers...
There are many slow moving power vessels, human powered vessels, houseboats, etc that are not restricted. A 25 ft sailboat under small outboard power isn't any faster than a kayak but it has no special status UNTIL it raises it's sails and kills the engine.
Hey, you want a restriction status....RAISE A SAIL on your kayak and guess what? You now are truly restricted and now have stand on status over an unrestricted power boat!
Well said
CG Aux Paddlesports Class
The Coast Guard Auxiliary has developed a Paddle sports class to increase knowledge and awareness. I’ve seen the material and agreed to teach the course. While not perfect, it is an acknowledgement that the CG Aux can play a role with paddler education.
source of confusion
I think referring to “power driven vessels” at the bottom of the hierarchy is the source of the confusion. Really, rule 18 is not distinguishing how boats are powered, it’s defining special classes which are restricted in their ability to maneuver in some way.
So what you have is all boats, and then the 4 classes of restricted boats (sailing, fishing, restricted maneuvering, adrift).
The way we should be thinking of it is NOT is a kayak a power driven vessel. Instead we should be asking “which restricted class do we fit in?” Clearly the answer is none. Kayaks are not in one of the four restricted classes, so they get no special consideration.
Makes sense. Glad I looked into this more, and thanks to Salty for clearing it up (albeit with palpable exasperation). 
I imagine dodging other boats all day, because they don’t know the rules, and you don’t want to lose your ticket, might make this a sore spot!
Nate
So jbead
How would your course answer the OP’s question and speak to bowrudders points? How would you address the common kayaker assumption of having stand on rights over power vessels?
My last comment here…
You “got-it”! And thanks for stepping out of pre-conceived thinking and exploring new, conflicting information, and “learning”. Made this worth my time.
Yeah I get grumpy with paddlers who cut across my stern in a marina when backing out, or diddle along in the shipping lanes in dense fog, or suddenly appear from behind a breakwater and require evasive action with a heavy tonnage vessel. These actions are common among a lot of boaters, not just kayakers. But most often the paddlers believe they are special and within their “rights” as human powered craft to do whatever they want.
I am a kayaker, sponsored paddler, expeditioner, past instructor of kayaking,kayak designer, program director etc. I am also a Captain for my real job.
The more a kaykar understands maritime Rules the better they will enjoy paddling.
There’s a guide where I live that is outstanding and teaches his students well. I hear him check in with Traffic regularly and he’s spot on, professional, and a pro. I admire that!
What course says and my answer
I have only seen the powerpoints, so not sure if there is an instructor guide or other material that goes into more detail. The slides for “Sharing the Waterways” only address Nav Rules as follows “Know the navigation rules for your state.” It then moves into Aids to Navigation.
I would answer the question as I did in my initial post on the topic, which is to describe the rules applying to a crossing situation.
I will advise students based on my understanding that kayaks and canoes have no special standing under the nav rules. We are simply another vessel that is not constrained in the same way that the named categories are.
I can say that in many classes both with kayak instructors and the CG Aux I have never had anyone assert that kayaks have special privileges under the rules, so maybe that belief is not as widespread as may be thought. Do many paddlers act that way, sure - much like many power boats, jet skis, sail boats under power, etc.
I always appreciate Salty’s posts on these topics because they have helped open my eyes to the issues from a commercial captain’s perspective as well as from that of a kayaker and occasional recreational power boater.
I have a situational disagreement
1. He was coming down a narrow (ish) channel and you were crossing.
2. He was on your Starboard and as such had stand-on priveledge, despite the added situation of a narrow waterway.
The powerboat in the opening post was stand-on in the literal reading no doubt. However, it read to me like he altered course to cut the corner in front of the kayak while there was ample deep open water astern of the kayak. When I’m not on my surfski I’m on a 200m wide river in my kayak or my workboat, pretty much daily (did 20km in the kayak this AM and will be running/trawling along 40km tonight in my workboat for example). If a vessel of any sort is crossing in front of me and they are most of the way across I consider them to have yielded the channel, irrespective of what side of them that I am approaching. It is rude and sometimes dangerous to cut between their heading and shore. Now if they start to cross when it is obvious that they are going to force me to alter course or throttle back I get pissed because they’ve put me in a crossing situation(more often that not this is a fisherman switching sides of the river ambling across with his trolling motor). But it sounds like the opening post kayak had crossed sufficiently to leave a clear channel.
My only advice to the opening post is to give himself more time to cross in the future.
3. Had the roles been reversed he would have been the give-way vessel to you!
A kayak is never stand-on where I live. A kayak is a speed bump. I can almost guarantee that had the powerboat in the opening post been approaching the kayak’s port side the powerboat still would have cut the corner across his bow. The only vessel that I ever encounter that operate with any sense of the rules are commercial traffic over on the intercoastal and entering or exiting Ponce Inlet. Joe Bayliner is a free for all.
Two most recent events:
This morning I overtook a bass boat in an IDLE ZONE(defined as minimum speed necessary to maintain steerage and make headway), he sped up until he was matching my speed. I was going 7kts upstream so you can imaging the wake he was throwing as we were passing the marina and fuel docks. Once we passed the marina and entered a “SLOW SPEED” zone (boat must remain fully settled in the water without throwing significant wake) he throttled up on plane and took off. Totally flouting the rules. Pretty typical behavior around here. If you expect someone like him to behave sensibly in a crossing situation you’ve got another thing coming.
The other night I was running about 20kts and rounding a bend. I was on river right on the inside of the bend. A boat coming the other way cut the corner and forced me to swerve to port to avoid collision. He did that while bright-lighting me which obliterated my night vision for a time. That kind of crap happens all the time.
"bowrudders points"
Salty, you ask in your post, “How would your course answer the OP’s question and speak to bowrudders points? How would you address the common kayaker assumption of having stand on rights over power vessels?”
I just want to point out for the record that I do not assert that kayaks have standing rights over power vessels. Maybe your two sentences are just accidentally side by side, but it looks like you’re attributing that claim to me, but nowhere have I stated that. I just raised the question of where kayaks fit in. No assertions, just a question.
trying to understand something …
– Last Updated: Apr-21-10 1:45 PM EST –
...... to me a channel or fairway has two sides . Both sides combined equal the channel or fairways' total width .
One half of the channel is for boats going one way , and the other half is for boats going the opposite direction .
Irrespective of any tide or current (barring navagational obstructions) , opposing traffic navigating up "or" down stream should be kept to ones port side (left) .
So when underway and navigating the course of the river or channel a boat should be in her lane(s) or on her side of the river so to speak , thus not presenting to an oncoming boat as a head-on collision possibility .
When you left the shore behind you in the crossing , you had to first cross the traffic lane(s) that would (or should) present possible conflicting traffic approaching from your left (port) .
Upon reaching the half way mark in the channel , you entered into the lane(s) that would (or should have) have confliting traffic approaching from your right (starboard) .
Am I understanding correctly that the power boat in question was initially running the river channel in the wrong lane(s) but then crossed over the center line diag. into the proper lane(s) , and further kept his diag. course through the correct lane(s) closing towards shore (which would have been on the power boaters starboard side) , and in the process crossed your bow even though you were 3/4 the way across the intire channel .
If you look at a channel as I have described , having two halves , and you being 3/4 the way across the intire channel ... that would put you just about in the middle of the lane that will have traffic approaching from your starboard .
At the least , I believe the power boater should have "slowed" to a reasonable (meaning safe - for you) crossing speed at your bow and maintained a max. possible seperation while still staying anywhere on her correct half of the channel (regardless if she crosses you on the bow or the stern) .
Power boats have #'s , and if you feel the operater was endangering you and/or acting in a reckless or threatening way ... you have the option to report such to the proper authority .
Not knowing exactly how you summize the potential danger your situation presented , or if you felt the power boater was manuvering in a threatening way ... only you can be the judge of whether the inncident had grounds of being reported , regardless if choose to report or not .
You were obviously concerned enough to bring it up here , and you did say her wake had the potential to compromise your vessal (swamp ??) had you not been using a skirt .
traffic separation
– Last Updated: Apr-21-10 2:47 PM EST –
Pilotwingz, I don't think you can think of boat traffic as being strictly divided into imaginary lanes the way car traffic is on a road. Only really large shipping channels are divided into traffic separation schemes which are demarcated on charts, and inbound traffic is restricted to one side with outbound traffic on the other. In a run-of-the-mill channel, boats approaching each other should pass port-to-port, but I don't believe a boat is otherwise restricted to one side of the channel or the other. A kayaker crossing the channel should not therefore only be expecting traffic from his left for the first half of the crossing and from his right for the second half of the crossing. A vessel coming down the channel on his own, can legally be in any part of the channel.
That's my recollection anyways. We'll see whether it holds up to professional scrutiny. ;)
I asked jbead because he will be
teaching paddlers and some paddlers, including yourself, assert that they are in fact mislead in courses by unclear instructors.
I like his answer, and I have no doubt he and his group will teach accurate info, which is what the paddling community needs and deserves.
BTW, several kayak schools are doing an excellent job as well. Gronseth’s Kayak Academy is one of those.
Ever think that the PB did think.
And changed his course so that his wake was coming onto the bow of the kayaker and not the stern. Also maybe by the time he saw you if he slowed down you would have been plowed by a larger wake. A boat up on plane does not make a very big wake. If kayakers don’t like pb then maybe they should stay out of waters where pb are. I am a kayaker and way to many kayakers think that the world should stop when they are paddling. Chill out and enjoy the wake they do provide a lot of fun once you get used to them.
Power Boat Numbers - Not Much Good
I’ve only had one close call involving a power boater. The driver was not watching where he was going (too busy yaking to his passengers), and since his course was not a straight line I was unable to decide which direction I should move to maximize the distance between us when he passed until there were only seconds left to go. It was a big cigarette boat going about 70 mph, and I didn’t even SEE any numbers on the hull, much less have a chance to read them. I seriously doubt that anyone will be able to read and remember numbers, which are typically just three inches high, while they are trying to decide what evasive action they must take. Using binoculars to read the numbers from a distance when you see a powerboat doing something dangerous is one thing, but being the person in danger rules out the possibility of reading them at all unless the encounter is at slow speed.
Passing to the right…
… doesn’t sound like what was going on here, because the paddler was crossing the channel at a right angle. When you are driving on a highway and a car on a side street crosses the highway from left to right in front of you, is there even a remote possibility that you might react by trying to stay “in front” of that crossing vehicle due to some ingrained “habit” of keeping other vehicles on your left? NO. As soon as you perceive that the crossing vehicle will be out of your way before you get there, you just continue on your way. All of us are smart enough to know that “staying to the right” of a car that’s crossing from left to right in front of us would be a sure path to collision. Sorry, but that brand of logic just doesn’t cut it.