Hey
I was just telling what happens every single day on the water. And I’m not going to listen to some poorly designed analogy of why this couldn’t be some Joe passing port to port just based on habit. Because there are no distances given in the OP, or depths, etc. He says 3/4 the way across, deeper water to his aft. For all I know that leaves a quarter mile and enough depth for the QE2.
As said, just telling you what happens. Not saying this is what happened, saying this could’ve happened, because I see it all the time.
state laws differ
but if that happened in Maine I would have noted his registration number. There is a no wake law within 200 feet of shoreline to prevent erosion and destroying loon nests.
Check with your state regulations…Boat wakes per se dont bother me while I am paddling but I see alot of people simply not paying attention while powerboating.
Yes getting killed does enter my mind…a couple was killed near here by a boater under the influence.
Being noticed is the hard part for us.
Nate , I understand what you have said
– Last Updated: Apr-22-10 8:00 AM EST –
...... and do agree that a boater should never completely expect that all boats will be moving in the proper directions and in the proper lanes of a channel . There are many acceptable reasons for that as well , such as entering/exiting a channel . Not all sections of rivers have marked channels (such as piedmont and further upstream) , most tidal influenced sections will though .
The OP said "river channel" ... channels are marked with bouys or sign post (some lighted , some not) . RRR is the rule when running up a rivers' channel . Red is to your starboard going up stream , green is to your starboard going downstream .
When cruising (upstream or downstream) via a river channel passage , a boater is "expected" to stay on thier half of the river channel , and more so slower traffic is generally "expected" to stay farther to the right side (shore side) of the channel .
No , as far as I know there are no restrictions as to where a boat may navigate within the river ... but if you are running either up stream or downstream in a river channel and there are other boaters doing the same , you will not be on the wrong side of the river for very long before something changes your mind about your position within that channel .
Fair Enough
– Last Updated: Apr-22-10 8:05 AM EST –
So I might as well add that I don't see anything like this on the water here, such as when crossing the Mississippi channel where pleasure-boat traffic is extreme, and I simply thought that the reason nobody on that river does what you describe makes perfect sense. After all, the powerboater in this case was about to run-down the paddler and didn't change course. Even the most brain-dead, force-of-habit driver wouldn't let that happen. Since all of us also drive cars, I tried to give an analogy that also makes perfect sense, to me at least. I bet you are right about that boater being very familiar with the channel, to the point that he didn't "need" to watch were he was going. What this all comes down to, is that your "possible explanation" seemed like a case of "really reaching" for something, and it set off my bullcrap detector. That never happens to you?
marked channels
Yeah, I got that he’s in a marked channel, but channels are not marked down the middle, unless they’re very large, very significant channels. The red-right-returning rule only tells you whether you’re inside the channel or outside. It doesn’t speak to which side of the channel you should be on.
I understand your point that most boaters probably carryover some car-driving laws into their navigation of channels, but those laws aren’t echoed in some ways by the navigation rules, so referring to those analagous roadway situations may not always be a safe practice.
Rules of the Road
These have all been good points, but remember that when you are on the water, many of the people out there have no idea of what the rules are. Anyone with good credit can purchase a boat that can go 100 mph, and no prior knoledge is required. In addition to not having read or understood the rules, he may be too drunk to remember them. When it comes right down to it, your responsibility is to avoid collision by doing whatever is necessary. That is why the term “Right of Way” and “Burdened Vessel” have been changed to the more politically correct “Stand on Vessel” and “Give Way Vessel”. This supposedly tells the skipper that he has no right to just go agead and hit the other guy.
Wave runners are a good example accidents due to ignorance. The vessel itself is a marvel of engineering and are safe. But because they are fast, fun, very maneuverable, etc, they are frequently the first boat that a young person will purchase. Coupled with lack of knowledge, alcohol, etc, they can be very dangerous. It’s not the boat, it’s the driver.
Kayakers aren’t really in a class of their own. They are just like rowboats, canoes, and any other human powered craft.
All that is required of a kayak is a white light that can be shown in the direction of an oncoming boat when required. You can, optionally, use the red/grn/white lights used by larger boats, but if you do, you should do so according to the rules.
Well said Jerry… Now About Channels
It’s standard practice to stay to starboard in a narrow channel but it is not required. Real world example: I’m currently running a big vessel in a narrow channel for about 20 minutes. It’s got sand bars that create shallow areas and at 0 tide it has only 7ft. of water for about 200 yds.! In one area we have to go clear to the port side of the channel as we head south to avoid running aground, and the 200 yd section we have to take the middle at any tide.
This is local maritime knowledge based on the channel filling in with sand and mud and needing dredging. It’s also a popular kayak area.
Now, many here may watch and get confused not knowing what we know, or appreciating what is concerning to us. It’s not like we can radio them and discuss passing arrangements.
For he most part the kayakers do well here and stick to the sides or cross quickly @ 90 degrees to the channel. Every once in awhile some zealout with a small brain wants to assert his/her self appointed priveledge (wrong) and get in the way. Now I have to slow a big tonnage vessel in current and maneuver around the idiot, which I do. Notice I didn’t single out paddlers, though sometimes they are involved.
Bottom Line: THINK about the needs of the other vessel and ask yourself “What might I not know here?”
And: “How can I paddle here in a manner that is courteous to other vessels?”
It’s not hard stuff and gets really easy when the assumptions of “right-of-way”… go away.
makes good sense to me salty …
… the deeper draft of your vessal constitutes one of the many acceptable reasons to find a boat traveling up or downstream on the unexpected side (or middle) of a narrow river channel .
Yeah, lot’s of variables
Known deadheads, logs, current and back eddy’s (we use them in a big vessel just as paddlers do) etc.
I have friends come along at times and they all leave saying “Man, you have a stressful job,I had no idea”. It really isn’t that bad, but there’s a lot going on and the responsibility is big.
And hey folks I aint perfect either. I have to at times review things I’ve forgotten, every so often forget to check in with traffic at an agreed point, etc. We’re all human. To me being a good mariner is a way of thinking, and preparing, which accounts for human lapses. It’s very process driven and analytical. That mindset is what I take in my kayak as well.
The more you know, the more you understand the big picture and the better you can relate to other vessels etc. My guess is that this thread may alter the way some who’ve read it think and act on the water.
Besides, it’s fun stuff.
Safe paddling.
After reading this this thread
My original response stands: assume nothing when it comes to other boaters. Discussing the finer points of the Nav rules makes for a good discussion with no practical application for paddlers. When it comes to dealing with bigger/faster boats there is only one rule: Stay the eff out of the way! The further out of the channel you are, the better. This is based on 25 years of sailing/power boating/ paddling.
It’s really simple: Half the boaters sharing your little patch of wet don’t know the rules, the other half is at least 3 sheets to the wind. Or at least you should, for your safety, assume it to be so.
BTW, to whoever used the sailboat tanker example: Sailboats,in many situations, have ROW over power boats, but they don’t have rights over commercial traffic. If the sail boat skipper tried to enforce ROW over a large commercial vessel he’d wrong along with getting run down. Infamously, there was this situation in Balto’s inner harbor involving a J22. It lost.
After reading this this thread
My original response stands: assume nothing when it comes to other boaters. Discussing the finer points of the Nav rules makes for a good discussion with no practical application for paddlers. When it comes to dealing with bigger/faster boats there is only one rule: Stay the eff out of the way! The further out of the channel you are, the better. This is based on 25 years of sailing/power boating/ paddling.
It’s really simple: Half the boaters sharing your little patch of wet don’t know the rules, the other half is at least 3 sheets to the wind. Or at least you should, for your safety, assume it to be so.
BTW, to whoever used the sailboat tanker example: Sailboats,in many situations, have ROW over power boats, but they don’t have rights over commercial traffic. If the sail boat skipper tried to enforce ROW over a large commercial vessel he’d wrong along with getting run down. Infamously, there was this situation in Balto’s inner harbor involving a J22. It lost.
Everglades
happens there too…some channels force power boats to the “wrong” side.
Fortunatley a powerboater pulled up along side and politely (really) added to my local knowledge.
sailboat R.O.W.
– Last Updated: Apr-22-10 1:53 PM EST –
I was probably the one that brought up the sailboat, as that's usually my perspective.
I don't think you're right about commercial vessels though. If a sailboat is under sail power alone, and a commercial vessel is neither restricted in it's ability to maneuver (towing, draft, etc) nor actively engaged in fishing then it TECHNICALLY is the give way vessel. The Navigation Rules don't make any exception for a vessel that happens to be used commercially. If it did, there would be no easy way to tell whether a boat was commercial at a distance. There is no specific lettering or lighting for vessels engaged in commerce, and up here you'll find plenty of lobsterboat hulls that are finished either as commercial and as private pleasure craft. Sailing vessels up here as well are as likely to be commercial charters as private yachts. It would be chaos if the Rules depended on determining which boat had a paid captain.
But back to the sailboat/tanker scenario - in practice, I'd be an idiot if I made a tanker alter it's course to avoid me in my sailboat, even though I could be Stand On vessel. For starters it's inconsiderate, IMO. But more importantly it's dangerous.
The physical reality is that if you sail across the bow of a 20,000 ton vessel moving 20 knots, it could be unable to turn enough to avoid hitting you, and you will be the big loser. A sailboat (under sail) may be Stand On vessel in that scenario but, as you pointed out, the Rule of Gross Tonnage dictates that you'll get crushed.
A real-world ROW issue up here is that of lobster boats. Paddlers are generally not bad about staying out of their way, but visitors to the area who don't understand how lobster fisherman operate are more likely to be a nuisance when they go out in their kayaks, even though they aren't trying to be. There's no way to paddle around here and not be in lobster fishing grounds, so anyone paddling in Maine needs to understand how to read where that lobsterboat is going to go next, and what it's going to do when it reaches that buoy. It may look like a lot of chaotic circling at first, but it's actually quite regular and predictable. It's inconsiderate to slow them down, and it's against the Rules of Navigation. (hauling pots means engaged in fishing). Passing on the hauling-side of a lobsterboat as it grabs a buoy is a sure way to make one more lobsterman hate kayakers, and we definitely want to stay on friendly terms with the most populous group of boaters up here.
Hauling side?
General advice is never pass near, as in 75yards or less of working lobster boat on its non-hauling side. For the simple reason they will never see you until they have turned into/onto you. I assume you are talking about getting closer than that on the hauling side where you could interfere with gear at best.
It is interesting that the term “right of way” gets used often in these discussions. While there is such a thing under the Rules, it exists only is certain specified geographical locations. Otherwise the term is technically inapplicable. The other often interesting thing is the problem alluded to due to the fact vessels under oars/paddles are simply vessels under the Rules and often the Rules establish responsibilities based on a vessel’s category. This leads to all sorts of twisted logic to claim a kayak is a vessel propelled by machinery and thus a vessel under power for determining how the Rules apply to kayaks. I agree with Salty that it is a useful/helpful analogy to treat a kayak as a vessel under power for determining its pecking order so to speak. However, no way is a kayak a vessel propelled by machinery under the definitions in maritime law.
hauling side
Yeah, the hauling side (nearly always starboard) is the direction they circle while hauling, rebaiting, and dropping a trap. So if a boats coming your way, and the next buoy matching that boat is going to be between you and the boat when he starts hauling, you’d better beat feet. As soon as they approach the buoy, they’ll put the helm to stbd, and make a circle as they work the trap.
seems there was always a rule that …
– Last Updated: Apr-22-10 5:01 PM EST –
...... addressed the more and less manuverable craft and the speed capability issue too .
From my perspective , a sailing vessal (under power or not) has less manuverability than a power boat .
A tanker or deeper draft vessal (probably like salty's ??) , has less manuverability than a power boat , a paddled craft or a saiing vessal .
A paddle craft has less manuverability than a power boat and probably less than sailing vessal .
Power boats are at the top of the manuverabilty chain in my perspective and should yield way to lesser manuverable craft in all situations regardless of right of way .
Now power boat on power boat , that's another can of worms that in many circumstances rules won't matter much to some operators .
Working vessals actually performing some fashion of work upon the water have the right of way in my mind also , that could also include fishermen under drift or troll in my mind .
My basic operating rules are to give way to any vessal if they appear to need or want it . Be nice if power boaters converging (as in two in eminent conflict) would yield way to the approaching from starboard vessal ... in my dreams though .
My main stay is they are all bandits and trust none of them , and yield way if there is any question in your mind ... has always worked for me !!
OK, but that would be really close
It never occurred to me to get so close to a working boat that I would impede hauling and resetting the traps. I have always been more worried about their ability to see to port since vision from that side of the boat is usually blocked with all kinds of gear and as they work on the starboard side they will usually see you on that side.
All this talk about “port” & “starboard”
– Last Updated: Apr-22-10 9:44 PM EST –
..., yet in the U.S. Navy, when the captain wants the ship to execute sharp right turn, he doesn't say "hard to starboard", he says "right full rudder". In the Navy they also say "back" regarding going in reverse instead of saying "astern" like all the wannabe seamen out there. I have to wonder what's behind the perceived need for such jargon. I wonder if it's the same thing that compels a great many kayakers to express their speed in "knots" even if all their maps are scaled in statute miles.
no big deal
Call it right if you want. And does it really matter what units you use for speed?
I use knots because all my charts have latitude scales on the right and left side.
Maybe in the Navy that’s the case
But not in USMM.