Lol. Or see me try it in an empty boat - swim practice (if I was lucky) 
One canoe ime…Whitesell Pirana. It’s quite voluminous. Bagged and electric pump. I’ve got one, my sons first OC1, as it was like paddling with training wheels. Converted to OC2, our 440 pound combined weight would be dryer in that than same run soloing our Encores. Not sure if there’s a modern day equivalent.
Cl 3 can be playable in spots open boating in my experience. Cl 4? Blade in the water at all times,hang on and pray lol.
I still have my Piranha as well. It was a little big for me to solo and have much fun. As a tandem, my partner and I were still under 300 pounds and it really came alive for us.
Yes, not a lot of playing for me at least in Class IV in an open boat!
You are spot on about my experience with canoes. I went out solo on a rented canoe at a state park. My rec kayak could have completed the same water trail with 1/3 the effort in 1/3 the time. I’m sure some canoes are much better especially if you know how to paddle them.
My lightweight gear packs small for backpacking. I would carry the same gear that fits in my 75L Osprey on a kayak trip. If I pack light, would a creek boat be best because of increased maneuverability in rapids?Packing a creek boat for a 3-4 day camping trip is an art form where you have to consider weight, functionality, floatation, size, and trim. Paddling a creek boat on essentially flatwater is not pleasant. I would stick to a crossover boat, IK, or canoe. IMHO, most of the crossover kayaks are pushing their capabilities above class III (but others may differ about that).
Yeah, the Piranha will run CIV loaded in the right hands. Those hands are not mine though. CIII+ is about as good as I could do with my Rival (not the canoe’s fault though).
My short-term recommendation would be to take your camping trips and portage rapids while you’re learning whitewater skills, and to seek whitewater to train (with appropriate instruction and safety precautions) on that doesn’t involve camping. As you develop your whitewater skills you can decide whether you want a dedicated whitewater boat, and whitewater/camping boat, or something else.
Most folks, I think, would argue that a canoe is the way to go portaging. Given the choice, I’d generally agree, but not everyone wants to or can afford get a different boat for every day of the week, and it sounds like you want to develop your whitewater skills in a kayak, not get a canoe. Depending on where you paddle and how you pack, it might not be terrible to portage your 11ft rec boat and backpacking gear, especially with short portages over well-travelled trails. Some shoulder padding might make a big difference.
I agree that soloing a canoe efficiently over distances takes a bit more practice, and that is certainly the case with a dedicated whitewater canoe, unless you’re relying on the current entirely.
If it was a big open style river a medium sized maneuverable sea kayak might work. People have paddled the Grand Canyon in sea kayaks. If it’s a smaller technical style river than a hybrid ww boat with a rear hatch would work.
But as others have said, would take at least a season of ww paddling to get the skills necessary to run class 4 ww, and that’s if you are a very quick learner.
Indeed. The longest that I’ve had the pleasure of paddling a dedicated WW canoe on flat water was 16+ miles on Lake Superior coming off of the Dog.
Thanks for the advice, my plan last year was to maybe go kayak on the snake near Idaho Falls. The route we were planning to take had class 1-2 rapids. A good example of what I may want to do, after getting some instruction and experience, is the Yampa between Silverton and Steamboat Springs. This stretch is mostly class 2-3 with a single class 4 according to the source I’m looking at. Would a Dagger or one of the other boat companies you mentioned be appropriate for either trip?. If it helps, my gear is set up for lightweight backpacking because that is what I have mostly done in the past. Also, are any of the high end iks comparable to a crossover? I always assumed they would be very slow on the flats like you suggested.
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Crossover kayaks would be perfect for the type of trip you mention, as long as you portage the IV. Of the boats I have, I would be comfortable using the Jackson Rogue or the Pyranha Fusion (crossover kayaks), If I wanted more space and easier packing options, I would also consider the P&H Hammer and Prijon Yukon (ocean play/light touring). The Rogue and the Fusion would be the most fun, but the Yukon could swallow the most gear.
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Do you have any more specifics on the stretch of the Yampa you are looking at? While it does go through Steamboat, it doesn’t go anywhere near Silverton. Steamboat to Maybell is no problem, but you probably don’t want to go much past there. Cross Mountain Canyon can have some legit Class IV depending on water level, but it’s in a 4 mile canyon with no egress until the bottom of the canyon. If something goes wrong, you can’t expect much help.
That was a mistake on my part. Stillwater to Steamboat is what I meant to say.
Nothing more than Class III on that stretch I don’t think, but I’ve never boated it. I think there is quite a bit of private land along that stretch, so you’ll have to pick campsites accordingly.
Howdy from Fort Worth. I’m not a WW guy yet. I still saving up for gear and lessons. Not sure where in TX you are, but there are a few places to take lessons in the San Marcos area. One name I’ve heard a lot of positive stuff about on various facebook groups is Ben Kvanli (kayakinstruction.org). Also, there is a manmade whitewater course up in OKC where you can take classes.
The 2 boats I’ve seen recommended most often for class III kayak camping are the Dagger Katana and Liquid Logic Remix XP. The Dagger Greenboat is the one I see talked about most when people kayak the Grand Canyon.
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Any experienced kayaker is not going to be thrilled at the prospect of paddling Class IV with a kayak loaded down with camping gear. I have been paddling for 40 years and last fall I paddled my fairly high volume "old School " Noah AQ on the Class III - IV Nolichucky in NC/ TN with camping gear stuffed into the back. It really changes the way the boat handles and required me to really pay attention and demanded all of my experience.
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Most people exaggerate the ratings of rapids.
It is really the obstacles that are the greatest challenge. Large boulders, snags, boulder sieves, big holes, ledges and falls. Those are the things that can wrap your boat or pin it. Being pinned in a kayak is never good.
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Six videos linked here show running class III - IV on a multi-day run on Ontario’s Dog River. Not my trip but I have paddled this river OC-1 but not with the skill & style these guys have. Note: the first is mostly an introduction and the last is the final portion of the portage around Dennison Falls.
You’ve just described the Dagger Katana 10.4 perfectly.
It’s a crossover hull. Drop down skeg for the flats. Class lll/lV capable; & w/ the right gear, can easily handle 50 mile multi-day floats.
The longest I’ve had Katana—that I got last March—has thus far been out on 3-day, 40 mile, multi day, self support floats; w/ everything stored internally (bow & stern) amongst (2) Watershed Futa stowfloat bags in the stern, one Watershed Salmon stowfloat in the bow, & one 10L bag behind the seat w/ room to spare.
Dagger’s Greenboat would also be an excellent approach.
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