Well now that I’m living inland in Idaho again, I’m thinking that a canoe will be very well suited to many of my trips for fishing, camping, hunting and exploring. I’m still sticking with my kayaks, but after a lifetime of thinking about canoes I may be ready to actually buy one and start using it.
I’m not looking for anyone to tell me what I want for a canoe, but I am looking for resources to start understanding the differences in canoe designs so that I can start knowing what I want to know to choose one.
I got into kayaks by buying a cheap rec boat and learning what I wanted to do and what characteristics I wanted in a boat. Still working on that one but I don’t want to end up with as many boats and hours invested before I even know what I want from a boat and why this time around so I’m hoping that some wintertime reading will help the process.
Where do I start to begin to understand the different designs, what they bring to the table as far as single or double paddling, tracking, effort to paddle, payload, maneuverability, stability, weight and cost?
And you canoe guys can forget about me doing any kneeling paddling. My old knees wouldn’t like any extended work that way.
First thing you should do is consider just how you will be using the canoe. You wouldn’t go rally racing in a Ford F150 and you wouldn’t try to haul a refrigerator home from a big box store with a Mini Cooper.
Will this be exclusively for solo use?
What is your size and weight?
You mentioned hunting. Would you try to haul big game in this boat?
As for camping and exploring, do you foresee multi-day adventures in which you would need to haul a lot of gear? If so, how much?
What types of water do you plan to paddle this on? Big lakes? Slow, easy rivers? Smaller streams with at least some rapids?
How far and fast do you forsee having to paddle in a day, or afternoon?
@pblanc said:
First thing you should do is consider just how you will be using the canoe.
I know those are all factors, but right now I’m just trying to learn a bit about canoes designs and characteristics.
If you would have asked me the appropriate questions when I bought my first kayak I wouldn’t have described my relationship with the boats that I have now. I would have told you fishing. I’m basically trying to get a baseline for learning. In honesty I suppose that you could say I don’t even know what the options are yet.
Yes hunting is my chief motivator and if I could pack an elk, or even a deer out with my kayak I probably wouldn’t be looking at all, but rather than looking at a boat that fills this one need I want to learn a bit and see what the possibilities are. From reading some of the old posts on here I’ve already learned that a canoe can have a much higher cruising speed than I expected making them better suited to longer trips than I was expecting.
Now comes leaning about tracking, weight, toughness, packing load, comfort, cost and how the tradeoffs between these things work.
Canoes can have a higher cruising speed than many people expect, but it depends on the hull and the paddler, obviously. In most canoes you will be sitting at least several inches off the floor of the hull. This higher center of gravity makes for less stability, especially for one not accustomed to canoeing. Even relatively “sleek” solo canoes are going to be a couple or several inches wider at the waterline than a “sleek” sea kayak.
Most people paddle canoes with a single bladed paddle. Of course, canoes can be and are paddled with double bladed paddles. But some canoes are wide enough and have high enough gunwales that double blading is either not that pleasant, or requires a long and relatively heavy paddle. Your stroke cadence with a double bladed paddle is generally going to be higher than with a single bladed paddle and that also affects efficiency. Making a solo canoe go straight with a single bladed paddle requires either switching paddling sides every few strokes, using steering strokes, or using a forward stroke that incorportates some type of “correction” into the stroke. With a double bladed paddle strokes are symmetrical. A stroke on the right side that tends to push the boat to the left is followed by one on the left side, so correction is “built in”. The more correction and steering strokes you have to use, the less your straight ahead efficiency will be. So wider boat, lower paddle cadence, more correction - a canoe will generally be less efficient moving on the water than a kayak.
A canoe hull will also catch a lot more wind. With an adverse wind this can really kill efficiency. With a cross or quartering wind it can make control more difficult. But as your experience with a single bladed paddle increases, your efficiency will increase significantly.
As for hull designs, there is almost too much to talk about. Narrow hulls with sharp and fine ends paddle easier and go faster than wider hulls with blunt stems and full ends. But narrow hulls with fine ends may not carry as much as you need and will feel less stable. They will also be more likely to take on water in waves. Longer hulls have a higher theoretical top speed, but few paddlers paddle canoes up to maximum theoretical hull speed for any length of time, unless they are ultra-fit marathon canoe racers. The longer a hull is the greater the wetted surface area is likely to be and as wetted area increases, so does drag. So sometimes a shorter canoe can feel “faster” and easier to paddle than a longer one with a greater theoretical hull speed.
If you plan to carry heavy loads in anything but very placid water, you are going to need a deeper canoe than someone who only does day paddles unloaded on calm lakes. A deeper canoe with blunt stems and full ends will ride over waves much drier than a shallow boat with sharp stems and narrow ends. But the more seaworthy canoe will be slower on calm water and catch more wind.
A canoe with a relatively straight, flat keel line and sharp ends will want to keep going in the same direction, sort of like an arrow. A hard tracking canoe can be more efficient on flat water where you want to go in a straight line most of the time. But on a twisty streambed, that can be anything from a pain to a disaster waiting to happen. A canoe that is “rockered”, sort of bent up at the ends, will be much easier to turn and make tight maneuvers when necessary. But such a canoe will be much less efficient on flat water.
Here is a modern whitewater canoe:
http://allnewamerican.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/VIP-Blackfly-Canoes.png
Here is a solo marathon racing hull:
http://keelhauler.org/RattBoy/CanoesForSale/WoodStrip3.jpg
Couldn’t look much different. The whitewater boat will spin in place, but you will have a hell of a time making it go in a straight line at first. The marathon boat will be much easier and more efficient to paddle in a straight line, but when you get to the other side of the lake, it may be easier to just go back by paddling backwards rather than try to turn around.
You will want something in between of course, but exactly where depends on how you plan to use it.
Hull bottom designs vary considerably. The fastest hulls with the least wetted area for their length and width have perfectly round bottoms like Olympic flat water racing canoes. And they are extremely unstable. Canoes with flat bottoms have great initial stability and feel friendly to canoeing newbies, but they are less forgiving when paddler error or conditions tend to roll them over to one side. There are also canoes with relatively sharp chines, and canoes with shallow or deep V bottoms. You will do best with a canoe that has what is called a shallow arch cross section.
If you foresee the need to pack out a large animal you are going to have to have a canoe large enough to allow for that, regardless of what your other intended uses are. And you are going to have to find a means by which to trim the canoe. If you just throw a lot of weight into the boat in front of you or behind you, the boat will be so out of trim that it will be difficult to control and very inefficient to paddle.
That’s just scratching the surface. There is a lot more to talk about when it comes to canoe design.
That is some of the basics I was looking for. Most of it seems pretty obvious, but I’m assuming nothing.
Heading in for say… Ability to begone for a week to setup camp and go hunting, then pack the camp and an animal back out is a must. Weatherwise I would rather be out on bumpy water in my kayak but hunting taking place in fall and winter means that the boat and paddler need to be able to handle some less than ideal conditions. If you head out for a few days having to stay one or two extra to let the weather calm down some is one thing but waiting for easy going may not always be an option for the trip home.
Even naming the absolute perfect boat for that isn’t really what I want right now though. Just looking to start the learning so I can figure out what I would use the most.
Of course there is still a big ole fishing kayak for packing a heavy load, but a canoe would do it better and might be a fun change of pace.
I think you are going to need a small tandem canoe, even though you plan to be paddling solo. I really can’t see carrying a weeks worth of camping/hunting gear and still have the capacity to pack out a sizable animal in a dedicated solo canoe.
A tandem canoe will not be as efficient to paddle alone as a dedicated solo boat, but if you can find a tandem with a symmetrical water foot print, you can paddle the boat stern first by sitting backwards on the bow seat. If this is the route you go, you won’t want a canoe with bucket seats or rotomolded contoured seats, because you can’t sit on those backwards. You also don’t want canted seats that have the front of the seat frame angled downward, and you don’t want a thwart right behind the bow seat, as many tandems have, because that would be right in your way.
Many tandems also have a thwart between the stern seat and the center thwart/yoke. That would not be in your way paddling the canoe stern first, but it might be in the way if you need to pack a sizable carcass into that end of the boat.
Canoes don’t have decks (for the most part) like kayaks, that provide rigidity. The open hull design depends on the gunwales and thwarts to keep the sides from flexing inward or outward and from twisting. A sixteen foot long tandem is generally as long as you can go and still get by with only two seats and one center yoke or thwart and still have decent rigidity. One canoe that comes stock this way is the Mad River Explorer which has only a center yoke and seats.
Another option would be to bring along a couple of tools that allow you to remove a short thwart from the stern of the canoe, and then bolt it back in when you have your load placed. That would work so long as your load does not reach up above gunwale level.
I suggest that you look at the Swift canoe site (swiftcanoe.com). They show the “efficient load range” for all of their canoes. You want your minimum and maximum loads to be within a canoe’s intended load range. Swift also gives a brief description of each boats’ intended purpose and I think they do it as good or better than any manufacturer. Think about your maximum load and just look at their canoes. It may help you narrow your focus.
Wenonah also has little charts by each canoe that show their strengths and weaknesses (speed versus stability versus capacity, etc). Again it may help you figure out if you think you might want a big solo canoe or a small/versatile tandem or a medium sized tandem.
Maybe if you look at their canoes and the descriptions then you can come back with some questions.
My one comment is that if you seek a boat that does everything well you may end up disappointed…for example once a tandem gets over 17 feet long it will typically be able to carry a huge load for a canoe but it will suck as a solo when lightly loaded (slow and difficult to handle in wind).
@pblanc said:
I think you are going to need a small tandem canoe, even though you plan to be paddling solo. I really can’t see carrying a weeks worth of camping/hunting gear and still have the capacity to pack out a sizable animal in a dedicated solo canoe.A tandem canoe will not be as efficient to paddle alone as a dedicated solo boat, but if you can find a tandem with a symmetrical water foot print, you can paddle the boat stern first by sitting backwards on the bow seat. If this is the route you go, you won’t want a canoe with bucket seats or rotomolded contoured seats, because you can’t sit on those backwards. You also don’t want canted seats that have the front of the seat frame angled downward, and you don’t want a thwart right behind the bow seat, as many tandems have, because that would be right in your way.
Many tandems also have a thwart between the stern seat and the center thwart/yoke. That would not be in your way paddling the canoe stern first, but it might be in the way if you need to pack a sizable carcass into that end of the boat.
Canoes don’t have decks (for the most part) like kayaks, that provide rigidity. The open hull design depends on the gunwales and thwarts to keep the sides from flexing inward or outward and from twisting. A sixteen foot long tandem is generally as long as you can go and still get buy with only two seats and one center yoke or thwart. One canoe that comes stock this way is the Mad River Explorer which has only a center yoke and seats.
Another option would be to bring along a couple of tools that allow you to remove a short thwart from the stern of the canoe, and then bolt it back in when you have your load placed. That would work so long as your load does not reach up above gunwale level.
Good information. Why would you paddle the canoe stern first when you only have one person in it? Is this because of the way the boat balances? Bow up if you go the other way while going solo in a tandem canoe?
@TomL said:
I suggest that you look at the Swift canoe site (swiftcanoe.com). They show the “efficient load range” for all of their canoes. You want your minimum and maximum loads to be within a canoe’s intended load range. Swift also gives a brief description of each boats’ intended purpose and I think they do it as good or better than any manufacturer. Think about your maximum load and just look at their canoes. It may help you narrow your focus.Wenonah also has little charts by each canoe that show their strengths and weaknesses (speed versus stability versus capacity, etc). Again it may help you figure out if you think you might want a big solo canoe or a small/versatile tandem or a medium sized tandem.
Maybe if you look at their canoes and the descriptions then you can come back with some questions.
My one comment is that if you seek a boat that does everything well you may end up disappointed…for example once a tandem gets over 17 feet long it will typically be able to carry a huge load for a canoe but it will suck as a solo when lightly loaded (slow and difficult to handle in wind).
I have looked at manufacturer sites to get ideas (impressed with some of the load ratings), but trying to learn the broader picture.
I know that I’m not going to get a boat that does everything but before just buying one that’s meant to haul large loads I want to learn a bit about canoes so that I can figure out what trade offs there are and what I get for what I give up in another area.
I could probably find a good pack canoe and do what I need and be perfectly happy with it, especially since I will still be kayaking, but a little education might make for better decisions and a boat that I use more or enjoy more.
I will say this about canoes. The ads for canoes for sale makes classic car and Kayak ads seem downright informative.
Most of the canoes feature information like it’s a canoe, the color, maybe length, on a rare occasion they list what they’re made out of and if you’re lucky you can see a brand name in a picture. Pretty rare to see a model, dimensions beyond length or much of anything else useful, at least in the under $500 range that I’ve been looking at for a starter canoe.
Yes, without a load or with a light load, if you sit on the rear seat of a tandem and paddle it bow first without any weight in the front half of the boat, the front of the canoe will rise up out of the water and the rear of the boat will dig in. Besides looking like an idiot, the bow sticking up out of the water will reduce the effective waterline length and it will catch a lot of wind. You will essentially be sitting and balancing on a relatively small area of buoyancy in the rear of the boat that the front will want to pivot around. I was under the impression that you might sometimes be using this boat just to poke around or fish for a day without much load in it.
Sitting backwards on the stern seat and paddling stern of boat first will place your center of gravity much closer to the longitudinal center of buoyancy. What is more, depending on the length of the boat, your arm length, and the seat placement, you may be able to get your paddle up into the bow quarters of the boat to execute bow steering and turning strokes.
Now, if you have enough cargo in the boat to put in the front of the longitudinal center of buoyancy, then you might very well be able to paddle the boat normally sitting on the stern seat. In that position, you will be limited to stern steering strokes. If you want to double blade, however, the canoe will be a lot narrower at the stern paddling station.
You are in the situation of possibly having to paddle back with considerably more weight than you left with, so I would try to maintain as much flexibility as possible in packing and trimming your canoe. Being able to paddle the boat sternfirst sitting backwards on the bow seat increases your options.
As for canoe for sale ads, you are correct in that many times the seller knows little or nothing about the maker or the model, and often justs makes a wild guess as to length instead of getting out a tape measure and actually measuring it. It is also very common to call a canoe “fiberglass” when it is Royalex or roto-molded polyethylene.
I’ve already picked up tips that will be useful!
I was thinking a double would probably be the way to go for room, load and flexibility to bring someone.
Without internet I could have ended up frustrated trying to paddle a two man boat myself.
As for the material stated in the ads, yeah most people are clueless. Same as all the 1970 cars for sale with “original leather” seats (which are vinyl). Craigslist seems to be a place for people to highlight their ignorance.
What about packing along a little inflatable? When you get your deer or whatever, deploy the puff-em-up, load the carcass in it, and tow it. Just a thought, and maybe not the best solution; I had to use my solo canoe once to tow a mostly swamped rowboat across a very small lake, and it was not fun. OTOH, that boat was swamped, so a properly loaded boat in tow could be different.
You may have already seen Wenonah’s description of basic canoe design features, but in case not it is a good introduction, though perhaps slanted a little towards Wenonah’s racing background:
https://www.wenonah.com/Canoe-Design.aspx
Our canoe brothers that need to paddle a tandem solo bring a six gallon water jug. They fill water jug and place forward. That 48 pounds often trims them out well especially if seated on now seat as mentioned .
SharpsRifle - what part of Idaho are you in? If you’re in or near the treasure Valley, I can help you compare some hulls on the water. Hunting season looms for me here, but in a couple weeks, I can get with you with several different solo and tandem canoes - enough for you to get some idea of the differences.
@Steve_in_Idaho said:
SharpsRifle - what part of Idaho are you in? If you’re in or near the treasure Valley, I can help you compare some hulls on the water. Hunting season looms for me here, but in a couple weeks, I can get with you with several different solo and tandem canoes - enough for you to get some idea of the differences.
Very generous offer and would undoubtedly save me a lot of learning time but I am way up north in Coeur D’Alene.
This is one of those deals if you get a canoe that can haul a weeks gear and an elk… which even with rose colored glasses, is a tiny fraction of probable use, the boat will be the pits the rest of the year.
If you pack kinda light and bone out the meat, that would help obviously. Deer are no problem. I’d aim for something not quite so capable as far as weight, and get creative when/if you need to haul that much.
There’s some big solos out there… Wenonah Wilderness comes to mind. I love my Mad River Courier, but they are getting rare.
@Dick Summers said:
This is one of those deals if you get a canoe that can haul a weeks gear and an elk… which even with rose colored glasses, is a tiny fraction of probable use, the boat will be the pits the rest of the year.
If you pack kinda light and bone out the meat, that would help obviously. Deer are no problem. I’d aim for something not quite so capable as far as weight, and get creative when/if you need to haul that much.
There’s some big solos out there… Wenonah Wilderness comes to mind. I love my Mad River Courier, but they are getting rare.
I could be wrong. but I’m pretty much only planning on using the canoe for when I need to haul a load. I’ve got kayaks for other paddling, although if I end up liking canoeing more I can always add to the fleet!
I do know that the best canoe for me may take a couple trips to haul an elk out.
I’ve got some learning to figure out what would be best for me.
Sharps, the Wenonah Voyager is a solo canoe designed for carrying a load quickly. Rated at 700? lbs capacity. Made to handle big water.
Well I found a Grumman G-17 online.
Supposed to be built in '65.
Looks pretty good in the pics so I made a cheap offer (site unseen) and I’m getting this tonight.!
This is cheap enough that even if I don’t love this boat I certainly won’t be hurt.
They will take a beating and keep working. Those old Grumman boats are tough. I have one.