heh
true enough, “rolling with dubside” shows him rolling a monster tandem barge of a SOT (with thigh straps). He makes a point of “not blaming the boat”.
Greenland does not equal hard chine
Just to confuse things, historically not all Greenland kayaks had hard chines as the term is used here. Some do and some do not. All SOF boats have hull shapes created by the gunwale and stringers so they do not have the smooth curves of a FG boat, but they do not necessarily have a “hard chine” hull shape like the AA. It has a hard chine because it is a copy of S&G plywood boat which means it has relatively flat slabby sides.
Also, while they are much lower volume than any commercial FG boat and are also much “livelier”, SOF replicas of many Greenland kayaks are just fine for day paddling and are most definitely not just “rolling” boats. In fact they can be surprisingly enjoyable and quite rewarding to use for day paddles. Jut as they can be roomier than expected once you wiggle into them.
A good rolling stitch and glue kayak
is what I would like to build. Jay, do you know of one? I want it to be a fun day/play boat, too, so it would have to paddle well. I have thought about a S&G Night Heron, but to my knowledge it is not available in a Greenland style. I have pretty well decided against a SOF. The comfort just isn’t there, and the care requirements are too great for me. I’m never going to be a competitive roller, anyway. A good low volume production kayak would be fine. An Outer Island is okay, but a bit too hard to turn to be a fun day boat, for the kind of paddling I do. The Anas Acuta is a great play boat, but I don’t think it’s a particularly good roller. I really have not found anything significantly better than my old Perception Avatar. Ken…
thanks
Thanks for the discussion. Trying out some of these boats will be fun
Exactly, Celia
Exactly why I sold my Anas and kept my Romany. For rescues.
You’re mistaken about the AA…
– Last Updated: Mar-22-09 10:29 AM EST –
It is based on a SOF boat from Greenland (Illulisat, IIRC) not a S&G boat.
Also, Greenland kayaks almost invariably have hard chines. Some have a "secondary" chine between the gunwales and the main chine stringer or have wide gunwales where the bottom edge contacts the skin and creates another facet in the center area of the hull, but I don't recall seeing a Greenlandic kayak that had a hull similar to a baidarka (or anything close to it) in any literature. A hard chine is considered one of the distinguishing characteristics of a Greenland kayak. There are many other variations, but that's one thing that's essentially constant.
Yes…
– Last Updated: Mar-21-09 9:39 PM EST –
http://www.zeekajaks.info/blog/r_weblog.php?subaction=showfull&id=1225363014
http://www.geocities.com/roym52/AA-1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/roym52/AA-bulkhead-1.jpg
Welcome to the world of the Anas Acuta
I had been told that this was due to wear on the plug...apears that I was incorect.....it was designed into the early Anas Acuta to simulate the skinboat in the water....Very interesting
Best Wishes
Roy
The AA is not a copy of Taylor’s kayak
– Last Updated: Mar-22-09 8:20 AM EST –
It is not true that the AA is a copy of the SOF kayak made in Greenland for Ken Taylor. The AA is a copy of a S&G kayak that was derived from Ken Taylor's boat, but modified for an easier fit, a bit longer and wider by Blackford. Many of these S&G's were made in the UK and eventually Goodman made a FG version which was named the AA. Is the AA derived indirectly from a SOF made in Greenland for Ken Taylor and once removed by way of a S&G version: yes. Having seen a replica of Ken Taylor's boat this week, I think I know how it and the AA are similar and how they differ. I would not call it a copy. Very similar in some respects; yes.
There was a good article in SK recently by Dunning who surveyed the Taylor boat that does a good job of explaining the history of all this.
I don't think of the AA as a copy since some subtle curves are just not there. Splitting hairs?
As to whether all Greenland kayaks have hard chines, yes to an extent; but the hull shapes are more varied than some think and all do not have slabby sides. I have two replicas in my basement and neither has slabby sides. I agree that when most think and talk of Greenland boats they describe kayaks with hard chines and slabby sides.
greenland boats
Greenland boats all have hard chines, several designs have multiple chines, but they are still hard chines. No such thing as a round bottom greenland kayak.
Bill H.
greenland boats
Btw, might add the NDK Greenlander to the list, it’s basically a fiberglass version of a traditional greenland boat with hatches. The round cockpit takes a few minutes to get used to, you’ll either love it or hate it. I love mine 
Bill H.
good points
Rolling is all technique. I was getting by with improper roll technique in a soft chined boat, but with a hard chine that didn’t cut it. I had to learn the proper technique… now my sweep roll is effortless on or off side.
Good point about the different kinds of hard chine… some people think they have a hard chine but it’s just a modest hard chine…
I can see why a lot of people can’t handle the Q boat…
Still a little twitchy in confused water but amazing stability in bigger waves and surf. And in flat water I much prefer the hard chine.
I’m loving it. Hopefully I’ll be able to relax in confused water.
That IS interesting!
Any idea of the vintage of the boat in the pics?
Splitting hairs? Yes.
The AA is a surprisingly faithful copy/derivation of the Ken Taylor boat and it traces its lineage directly back to it. No, it’s not identical, but that would be unrealistic to expect in a commercial boat. Based on the photos that Fadedred posted, it’s obvious that the original fiberglass version was closer to the skin boat than the plywood versions, as there is no way to produce the concavity in the hull in plywood. Even the current hull has some concave areas and I wondered where they came from. Now I know.
You’re correct that not all Greenland kayaks have slab sides (a.k.a., a “4 panel” hull) and I said as much previously. The first skin boat I built didn’t either. However, hard chines are a pretty much universal characteristic, regardless of whether the boats have slab sides, multi-chine sides, V-shaped bottoms or flat bottoms.
I presume …
– Last Updated: Mar-22-09 4:16 PM EST –
that is your 1987 Anas, Roy?
My 1990 looks the same. I'll get a picture of it and post a bit later.
Brian, you had/have an early Anas. What vintage was/is it?
New Pictures posted: http://good-times.webshots.com/album/563538121VAPEPD
Picture # 10 is photo of Roy's 1987 AA bulkhead with a photo of my 1990 bulhead pasted about 1/4 above and overtop of Roy's. Similar curves?
Maybe by 1990 Valley was using two different molds for the Anas, one with the concave sided bottom and one with the flat sided bottom.
I dunno.
~wetzool
The Kayak
in the picture is my 1987 Anas Acuta…Greg Stamer has a '88 and he told me it’s slab bottomed.
I presumed the plug was remade after '87 and before the new’88’s were revealed.
my wife has a '90 and it doesn’t have the concave bottom like my '87 does.
Best Wishes
Roy
Yes
I would be very suprised if You had a actual 1990 that had this much curvature…post a picture
http://www.geocities.com/roym52/car-with-kayaks-1.jpg
The kayak on the pass side is my wifes '90
the other is my old Pintail
I think you can see that the bottom is slab sided
Best Wishes
Roy
Amen to technique
and don’t forget how your body fits the boat. I have a pintail and an AA. The Pintail is for sale, because it is a keyhole cockpit, and because I find it too big for my frame as compared to the AA. The Pintail, with no chines, seems more forgiving of bad technique on a roll, perhaps because it will flop upright after a certain point. For me, rolling the AA is like swinging a golf club: even if you manage to succeed sometimes with poor technique, it doesn’t feel right, and back you go to try to perfect it. In other words, the best boat for learning is the one that you enjoy practicing in, that invites an attention to detail in technique and gratifies when you attain it.
I get picky about the term “Greenland”
– Last Updated: Mar-22-09 8:46 PM EST –
I think perhaps I start splitting hairs because I tend to get picky if not prickly when people start talking about Greenland kayaks as if there was some archetype.
Given the constraints of the SOF construction, The Inuit of Greenland build an amazing variety of kayak designs.
By changing stringer location, rib shape, deadrise, etc., the hull shapes are varied. In fact while not round as in Aleut round, some Greenland kayaks have hulls amidships that are similar to say an Avocet and far rounder than say a Romany. So when people talk of Greenland kayaks as if they are all like, I tend to say wait a minute.
Not directed at you since I know you understand appreciate Greenland stuff very well.
the best boat for learning is…
"…the best boat for learning is the one that you enjoy practicing in,"
Absolutely true!!!