Anyone who had owned both the Pintail and Avocet can give an impression of the differences and commonality?
I’ve paddled the Avocet quite a bit, but not the Pintail. Both are “playful” boats of sort. Just debating whether I should give the Pintail a test paddle to broaden my horizon.
What should I expect?
Just Do It
"Just debating whether I should give the Pintail a test paddle to broaden my horizon. "
Consider paddling every boat you can for the reason you gave.
I have no idea if your experience with the Pintail would be the same as mine. Pintail has a tad more volume, less directional stability, somewhat more relaxed feel in sloppy stuff, seems harder to move above 3+ Kts, and has a more fun feel overall compared to the Avocet which seems coldly competent next to Pintail.
Or…the Avocet is the person who would make an ideal mate, the Pintail is the prom queen you would like to date, and the AA is the prom queen’s wild sister you dream about.
Oh, man!
You should be working for VCP marketing 
“AA is the prom queen’s wild sister…” Holy waves, I need to try one
wow. Not bad
This is the kind of advertising I’d remember.
Sheesh!
If an Avocet is “coldly competent”, what’s an Aquanaut?
MY Avocet gets bored on flat water and likes a good romp in the waves. You must not be treating yours right…
I was not clear
It is in difficult water that the Avocet is competent almost to the point of unflappable. You misjudge a wave or ledge break and the Avocet says, “No problem”. I meant to say it is without the quirks, and thus the “personality” of the others.
Aquanaut is unflappable
The Aquanaut is my ‘utility boat’. It will handle any seas with aplomb. Peter Orton referred to it as a Land Rover as compared to the Nordlow as a Jaguar.
Great stuff
Thanks for the lively & entertaining responds. :o)
I’ll definitely try it. Though I now doubt I want to own it, given the response.
I found the Avocet a reasonable compromise of manuvability and tracking so far. A fairly good beginer boat for the covering distance in rough water outings. It’s lively enough for me at this stage. Still forgiving enough as I progress in my skill level.
Mostly, I’m looking for a boat that help me develope (ok, push me develope) more advance skills. Haven moved from the “big” water of the pacific to the east coast, I’m missing the excitement a bit. On the other hand, I don’t want to kill myself in a boat that requires attention every minute of the time. Paddling for me is a hobby, not a job.
Consider a Nordkapp LV?
If you want to push your skills, tho’ recommended as a second boat rather than your only one. It challenges re stability but retains better than average quickness.
help me - push me
– Last Updated: May-01-09 8:55 AM EST –
"help me develop (ok, push me develop)"
Maybe two very different boats.
A responsive but forgiving boat such as a Romany is an excellent learning platform because it makes it all feel so easy and provides elbow room for error.
A responsive and demanding boat such as a Nordkapp LV pushes some to develop better skills by being unforgiving of errors (most especially stiffness). However such a boat can undermine an aspiring paddler's confidence.
I own both and use both. The Nordkapp LV is amazing in chop, clapitos, running down wind etc... However, it will spank you quickly if you tense or stiffen. It does roll very quickly and easily. The Romany is my easy boat and my boat to learn skills and bolster my confidence.
Good point!
– Last Updated: May-01-09 7:33 PM EST –
> "help me develop (ok, push me develop)"
Maybe two very different boats.
A responsive but forgiving boat such as a Romany is an excellent learning platform because it makes it all feel so easy and provides elbow room for error.
A responsive and demanding boat such as a Nordkapp LV pushes some to develop better skills by being unforgiving of errors (most especially stiffness). However such a boat can undermine an aspiring paddler's confidence.
I own both and use both. The Nordkapp LV is amazing in chop, clapitos, running down wind etc... However, it will spank you quickly if you tense or stiffen. It does roll very quickly and easily. The Romany is my easy boat and my boat to learn skills and bolster my confidence. <
That's an excellent observation!
On the one hand, I'm passed the point of needing to bolster my confidence. I can handle a few spanking without giving up in pushing myself. ;-)
(being a WW paddler, dumping and rolling has always been taken for granted)
On the other hand, I'm not looking for a difficult boat just to prove myself!
(getting dumped repeatedly when 10 miles off the coast in quarter wind can be a serious issue)
I'm looking for a boat that encourages skill developement by rewarding the correct technique while punish mistakes.
My experience in WW has been, a boat that's "too forgiving" could forster bad technique by masking the mistakes. I don't want to repeat that mistake in sea kayaking. So ideally, I'd like a boat that's very precise and sensitive to techniques. If I do the right thing, the boat does exactly what I want. If I do the wrong thing, it tells me loudly without actually hurting me.
Crap!
That must mean my Nordkapp must be the prom queens great aunt or grandmother or something.
Every boat can be an
adventure. Ed is right. Paddle everything you can. Whenever you get the chance paddle someone else’s boat.
I have yet to paddle a Pintail, but have paddled quite a few boats - mostly sea kayaks. My go to boat is my Avocet RM. It’s what I’ve been glued to for the past two plus years to advance my skills. I’ve never used the skeg (but I keep it in working order). It doesn’t have the speed and glide of many other sea kayaks, so I have to work on my forward stroke efficiency to keep up or close by other paddlers. It was a bear to learn to paddle backwards under control, but I eventually mastered it. It has good secondary stability to a point, but when you go too far it will spank you, and the point of no return is not sharply defined - it’s kind of fuzzy (for lack of a better term). I have yet to master it in surf. I can usually do a balance brace with it, but not always (other boats are quite easy or near impossible). Sometimes I can hand roll it, but more often I cannot. It’s rotomolded plastic, so I don’t worry too much about making mistakes. It’s got bomber hatch covers. So overall, it still challenges me.
Best,
~wetzool
SUPERB WRITE-UP, WETTY
Agree
that you should paddle as many boats as possible.
wilsoj2, makes some good points.
I took a level 3 training class with Ben Lawry a few days before the ECCKF… He was using a NorthShore 16.8’ (Atlantic, I think) Also manufactured by Valley.
Then during the ECCKF Ben spent almost the entire afternoon helping me choose the right boat for me. He would ask me what I thought about each one and I told him and then asked him if my observations were on track (which they were)
He wasn’t trying to sell me a boat either. He told me straight up I was fine in the boat I had and that it was the paddling skills that needed to improve.
that being said he suggested I try the Nordlow and convinced the SKG to let me demo a new one. I’m 6’3’’ and about 195#… but I found it to be responsive enough to edging, etc, and retained good quickness with little effort.
I also demoed the North Shore Atlantic and it was by far the best on edge and the most responsive.
When Ben asked my observations on this one, I was impressed but still leaning to the Nordlow for it’s added speed. However the Northshore was impressive and a serious contender.
Over the next two days I completed a two day level 3 and 4 training class with the brand new Nordlow without any problems.
Excellent point
>It has good secondary stability to a point, but when you go too far it will spank you, and the point of no return is not sharply defined <
That’s exactly my take. It’s fairly “forgiving”. It literally makes rough condition “easier”. Great for challenging condition. Up to a point.
But at this point I feel it’s less great as a “testing tool” for developing skills. I would like to try a boat that has more “well-defined” characteristic, yet without being a “specialist” boat.
The often talked about “does everything well” FOR SKILLED PADDLER.
So far, from the boats mentioned, sounds like the NorLow should be on the top of my list.
(I think I could easily find a place that has all 3 for testing. Now, if the water just warm up a little faster…)
“…yet to paddle a Pintail” - wetzool
Come up with Pete to visit us while we’re in Friendship. A friend we paddle with regularly there has a classic Pintail (originally Bill Lozano’s). He wants to try my Nordlow and would probably enjoy a number of your boats.
Great opportunity…
Ben is great. He is smart, keenly observant, analytical, and witty. Trying boats with Ben asking questions and providing feedback has got to be pretty special.
So how did the Nordkapp LV work for rescues? I’ve yet to put a swimmer on the rear deck nor paddled the boat with someone hanging off the bow or stern. I’ve used my Aquanaut for most of my BCU training.
I’m still growing into my Nordlow. I love the boat, but am grateful for also having the Romany. Most especially as I am not very skilled nor confident in surf and tide races, the Romany provides some appreciated margins.
Yes, Ben
really knows his kayaks. Valley is his sponsor, but he never mentioned any boats during our class. I asked him about the North Shore after the class. I already had a Valley and he didn’t mention anything about it.
It says a lot about Ben’s work ethic to spend that much time with an aspiring kayaker demoing kayaks. There were a lot of people demoing kayaks and also a lot of instructors mingling around. Yes, he is very insightful and knowledgeable.
The Nordlow does fine with rescues. I did a all day training seminar today that covered all the rescues again. One of the instructors hung off the bow with his legs up and around.
It’s easy to maneuver around with any of the strokes, rudders and draws.
So far, the first few times out, the only stability issues are keeping it on edge with demanding beam waves. I seem to overcompensate and rock back over to the other edge on a wave that loses my track. However, I’m just switching from a hard chine with a completely different transition from primary to secondary.
In some challenging clapitos the softer chines did really well.
These are just first impressions. I’m planning to adjust to it’s stability profile and characteristics, and already putting it on edge much better than at first.
My Q boat was a real challenge but very rewarding for developing boat skills.
The Romney and Nordlow seems like a good combo.
The secondary is very challenging on the Nordlow.
Nordlow…
– Last Updated: May-04-09 9:47 AM EST –
The Nordlow responds to bow ruddering better than any other boat I've paddled.
And yes the 'kapp LV is fabulous in clapitos. It is impressive in lumpy water in general. The boat seems to really firm up as the water gets dimensional. It feels very confident moving through seas. More than most boats I've paddled its stability notably strengthens as the boat moves forward or backward. The times I unexpectedly capsized I was sitting still. That was part of my wondering about rescues and putting a swimmer on deck.
It is quite a different design/performance philosophy than that of such popular boats as the Explorer or new boats such as the TideRace Xcite.