Cadence depends on the paddle size , not on the style. A Greenland paddle , Euro paddle , Aleutian paddle or a Wing paddle can all be sized so that cadence is the same. Desired Cadence is one of the design parameters for anyone buying or making their own paddle.
1 Like
I agree with that, but it is harder to paddle a large blade than a narrow blade. I also realize style isn’t the issue; however, as it was explained to me, the high paddles tended to have larger blades. I didn’t measure the square inches, but visually it looked to be true. I was told the touring blade’s thinner design allowed a higher cadence wiith less fatigue. That seems to be true as I’ve switch between my assortment of paddles and compare my physical exertion to cadence and GPS speed. From what I’ve read about Greenland paddles, they are typically longer and narrow (some paddle makers claim their blades are equal in square inches to a Euro blade. I current work as a furniture maker. A colleague made a beautiful Greenland out of a close grain fir. In my mind, it’d too shirt, too fat and too heavy, but I’m comparing it to a 250 cm Werner Kalliste.
Now same question, reworded. Its my impression that a boat can be paddled to an efficient speed by using a blade that creates enough resistance to propell a boat. My experience makes me believe a narrower blade can accomplish the same amount of work. But since it doesn’t present as much resistance, a higher repetion accomishes the same work, but the effort is less fatiguing. I presently think that is true, based on my experience. Now, my curiosity is whether Greenlands typically have less square inches in the paddle, and if that is the case, does the paddler have to use a higher cadence to equal the propulsion of say . . . Euro paddle or a pizza paddle even. I trust the post saying that everybody in the group, regardless of paddle style, seems to stay together. THAT is interesting. I intend to build a Greenland, because experience kayaker seem to admire them, especially for rolling. I have a bad shoulder. My interest is putting less strain on my torn up shoulder in favor of higher cadence, which seems like a lower gear with higher cadence on a bicycle. Am I delusional or misinformed?
I paddle mostly high angle regardless of the paddle. Maybe because I have wide shoulders and long arms.
My favorite paddle is an Eddyline Wind Swift
of euro style but with narrow blades. It protects my damaged shoulder.
I hear you, String. I always used high for power surges to cross shipping channels, but I can’t raise my arm above shoulder level. It good that you can go high. The guy I worked with is no longer there. He left his Greenland paddle, i want so bad to try one, but I won’t use it without his permission. Got to make one.
Actually, Greenlands (GPs) are not “typically longer.”. You may be thinking of Aleutian style paddles, which have larger blades than GPs and longer shafts, but are pretty rare and more often matched with baidarkas, which are western Arctic extra long skin on frame higher volume kayaks. My standard (Euro) paddles are 220 and 230 cm, but the laminated cedar and fir GP I had custom made for my body metrics is 213 cm and my carbon Gearlab 2-piece GP is 210 cm.
1 Like
I’ve been using a Greenland for about 2-3 years now. I was out with some friends and one wanted to try it. So we swapped paddles.
I put that big Euro blade in the water for the first time in years and wow. First, it grabbed the water like you wouldn’t believe but my shoulder felt it instantly.
My experience is that the Greenland is way nicer to the shoulder for this very reason, it doesn’t put a lot of power down. But…, and here’s where I start guessing, you don’t need to put a lot of power down to go fast, just to accelerate. @Lillyflowers, with her Euro blade, always leaves me in the dust whenever we start out, I just can’t accelerate. But, I catch up and stay with her all day long.
Thanks willowfeaf, that’s interesting information, because his pet project was to make a skin on frame kayak. He was an eccentric, detail oriented guy. I’m sure his paddle was historically and perfectly proportioned to some specific plan. He decided to try a GP because he had a bad shoulder. I started working part time and doing field work at the shop months before he left, so we didn’t get a lot of face time. I did ask him if he tested his GP, which he had. He thought it was fast, but complained that sliding it left and right to paddle gave him blisters from the unfinished wood. That seems his paddle was too short, or wasn’t used properly. Unfortunately, he’s gone, and I didn’t ask if he was going to modify it or apply a finish? La! There it is! Stumped.
Your selection of paddles is great for comparison - two Euro paddles, as well as a wood and a composite GP. You mention lengths, but didn’t mention the brand or style of your Euro paddles. Do you have a preference for a particular Euro, and which of the GPs do you favor? Aestheticslly, the laminated wood must be a gem, but how does it perform next the the composite? Have you measure or recorded trip performance using the same kayak with the different paddles?
I just saw a follow up post supportng the other threads, that the paddle is slow to start, but can keep up once momentum is established. I knew it would start slow, but couldn’t find info about top end performance. Comments I’ve seen about other parameters of performance, such as bracing and rolling, seem highly favorable. It appears that the one handicap is acceleration, which could be a poroblem when trying to evvade an agile whale.
Another post came in about high angle paddling. I may have assumed I was using high angle technique when I actually only lowered my low angle technique. It may be a technicality, but I want to sort the details out so not to misinform new paddlers. Thanks for your info.
NotThePanter and other posts are consistent about top end performance of the GP. I may have worded the question wrong, but the info I’m seeking is coming in faster than I can follow. All of it is interesting and informative.
I gathered so far that the only handicap iof a GP is slow acceleration. I haven’t heard any complaints about weight. That doesn’t suprised me, because I believe that a minor weight difference is secondary to in-water blade performance. I prefer a Werner Kallite over the Camano, primarily because it has smoother in-water performance; lighter weight is a plus. I’m still interested in comparing the performance of a Euro against a GP in a measured way, such as a set distance or GPS. Next question is has anyone compared the performance of one GP blade profile against another GP, and anyone increased the area of an efficient GP blade profile to reach the optimal size for his or her preferred cadence.
Sorry to be a pain, but I’m sure someone knows the answer. Please don’t respond that, "If you have a blade that you like, why do you want to change?"Because I’m curious, learning new things is great, experimenting is fun, and making beautiful functional objects from wood is rewarding.
I used to scoff traditional paddles as anachronisms; nostalgic relics of a time long past; artifacts caught in a time warp that some refused to let die; an obsession to shun modernism in favor of natural implements; return to roots; eccentricity. Nah, that doesn’t fit. Too many experienced paddlers have a very quiet passion about these traditional paddles. I no longer think it’s an aberration, especially since they are showing up as composites, but are they like electric violins. Chesapeake Bay Log Canoes are a good example. Technical analysis of the hulls revealed that they closely resembled the hydrostatic curve of modern US Navy destroyers. Them old timers got it right through trial and error without the aid of computers, and people did go into space on technology that relied on slide rules. Kitty Hawk tour said the Wright brothers designed a propeller thst was, I believe, over 90% efficient. Dang! Thanks for your indulgence and replies.
This discussion made me curious so I pulled my GP off the rack to see if it’s even remotely sized “right” for me. Big nope to that. It’s at least 10 cm taller than my finger tips can reach when I’m on tip toe. When I have a replacement sea kayak (likely more narrow than my current one) I hope I still love this paddle.
I love long paddles. I hear the arguments about wind, and understand manuverability ducks in confined spaces. There is an arguments about being heavier. I get that and agree; however, that long reach give amazing leverage - provided that you can transfer the power from the boat to the water. You vet, but when you do, it do respond. If it’s really bad and a case can be made for shorter, I’m open to the discussion. Nothing better than finding out how you can go faster with less energy. I can switch down from 250 cm to 240 cm at not cost.
However, I’m not open to changing because there is less chance of bumping a fish on the head. My luck with fishing proved that fish are more adept at avoiding me, and I’m not nearly as dangerous as a twin screw 42 ft cabin cruise.
Many people suggest that the correct length of a Greenland paddle is such that you should just be able to curl your fingers over the blade when standing alongside of it. If you feel another length works better for you, then go for it.
A Greenland paddle is slightly less efficient and aggressive than a Euro paddle due to the relatively gradual way that it enters the water. However, because of this most people find it less stressful on the shoulders. It will have a little less acceleration, but once you get moving it’s not that different. Many people also feel that the additional length combined with the inherent floatation of a GP makes it easier to roll with. GPs are becoming increasingly popular with people in our Club, with most people making their own. You can’t beat the price.
1 Like
If your former coworker was sliding his hands while paddling he had a too short paddle – I have one that is INTENDED to be used that way, a 72" “storm” Greenland paddle (which came with my skin on frame). In fact I often carry it as my backup “spare” paddle on the deck. The reason to switch to a storm paddle is when conditions get really windy you have very little blade surface up into the wind while paddling – similar principle to some people switching a two piece Euro paddle to a 30 degree offset in wind: the narrow edge of the Euro blade faces wind on the up end of each stroke instead of the flat face. You use a sliding stroke so that you have the full depth of the blade in the water on the stoke side but little sticking up on the high side. With a properly sized regular GP your hands stay on the loom without sliding while paddling.
My cedar one piece GP was custom made for me by a craftsman out in the San Juan islands who specialized in them. He took a number of measurements from me (of both me and the kayak I was going to mostly use the paddle with, or at least I expected that at the time) . I chose a horizontally laminated model based on his ratings of relative flexibility and strength, He made paddles from solid cedar, horizontal cedar and Douglas fir laminates of 3 or 5 layers and also 5 layer vertical laminates (the stiffest). I chose a shoulderless design where the shaft gradually widens into the blade – some GP’s have a squared off shoulder where the shaft loom transitions to the blade portion. The loom is the portion where you place your hands. Your natural loom measurement is one of the metrics for making a paddle, as is the diameter of your grip. I’m on the smaller size as a person (5’ 4") but have relatively long hands, fingers and thumbs so my oval shaft diameter is pretty standard.
Since over my active lifetime I have broken both wrists (right one still has 3 screws) and my left elbow and proximal humerus, I have learned that I do best with narrow bladed paddles. I have Werners and Aquabounds with relatively slim blades – sorry, no model names on these because they are older and several were obtained as parts of package deals on used boats but the blades are 19’ x 6" . I have one Cannon (a 4 piece carbon shaft I bought for packing one of my smaller folding kayak kits for airline travel) that has a slightly wider blade than the others (19" x 7.5") – don’t much care for it for any extended outing or one where I need sustained speed over distance – it was fine for poking around narrow winding British rural rivers during my trip there in 2017. Too much strain on the assorted upper body joints with larger blades.
AI also have a vintage Bending Branches two piece wood paddle, vertical 5 layer laminate that is made of some kind of very fine grained blonde wood (maybe white cedar?). It has very long narrow blades of 23" x 5.5". I do like the feel of it but at 230 cm it’s a little long for usual preference with my kayaks (which are mostly Greenland style with 20" to 23" beams). I do use it with my 26" beam solo canoe.
Back to Greenland paddles. I had a Northern Lights 3 piece carbon GP for a while but never liked it that much. It was shouldered and the loom didn’t feel right to me so I sold it to another folding kayak owner who needed a breakdown GP for air travel.
The carbon GP I have now is a GearLab Akiak model, which has almost exactly the same dimensions and weight as my beloved original cedar/fir GP. I do like it and it’s great for travel (I found it fits perfectly in a padded rifle case). It feels very much like the cedar/fir GP but not exactly.
So, by far my favorite paddle is that wood Greenland and the one I use most often I had it at one of the 4 day Greenland training camp events where the participants enjoy swapping gear with each other to get the feel of other designs. Quite a few long time GP users and instructors there tried it out and highly praised the feel and performance so I guess it’s really as nice of a paddle as I have always felt it to be. Unfortunately the paddle maker, David of Friday Harbor Paddles, quit the business many years ago due to chronic stress damage to his hands and joints from woodworking. There are still some folks out there who make custom wood paddles to order. I feel like I really lucked out finding him for my first GP. I’ve loaned it to a couple of people to take measurements off of it to duplicate the lines. That paddle is in need of some restoration right now – I used it paddling along Maine coastal inlets two weeks ago and scratched up the ends a bit levering out of rocks . It’s due to be sanded down and resealed (tung oil and varnish mix). I have never had any joint pain or fatigue using this paddle, no matter how long I was out or in what kind of conditions. But I am not often out in extremely challenging waters, nor am I much interested in speed.
By the way, wood is really buoyant and my wood paddle has proven helpful in learning to balance brace and in rolling practice. It is the one paddle I would never give up. I mostly keep the others to use as loaners, spares or for specific functions (like with the canoe or for airline travel).
You’d have to register (free) on the qajaqusa.org Greenland style kayaking site to post on their forums, but you could “lurk” and find endless exchanges on the making and merits of GP’s and other trad paddles.
You should never switch your paddle angle as conditions change. You want to be able to rely on muscle memory when you paddle and especially if you suddenly have to brace. If you change paddle angles when the time comes to show off your awesome acceleration or brace into a wave to impress the crowd at the Tiki Bar, without this muscle memory, you are eventually going to have your blade slice cleanly through the water. Then you can practice your wet exit, or roll (if you get the paddle angle right).
4 Likes
I do tend to disagree with the “reach up and curl your fingers over the blade” method of paddle sizing. Human body metrics are far more complicated that that. I have long legs and a short torso for my overall height. My lower body length is irrelevant to paddle size so using that method yields a paddle length that is too long for me. Plus I use a high angle stroke with narrow beam boats. And the width of the boat you are using figures in. So while the “reach up” method may be useful for choosing gear at a kayak or ski rental place, it’s not the best way to determine optimal size for gear you are going to invest in for personal use.
I sold cross country skiis for years and that “reach up” method was common but even a worse method for determining ski length. Putting a stringbean thin 6’ 3" “Ichabod Crane” type guy on a 220 cm ski for which he didn’t have the mass to compress the camber out of in the kick part of his stride was as bad as sticking a 5’ 6" stocky bodybuilder on a pair of 190 cm skis that would have no glide under his weight. So we developed a gradation chart that took weight and fitness level into account along with height and, combining that with knowledge of the relative camber performance of the various ski models, we were better able to tailor skis to the individual buyer.
That said, there are many resources on the internet for sizing Greenland paddles using multiple body metrics and taking into account paddling style.
1 Like
Appreciate your wisdom on that (about feathering). I’ve never cared for feathering but have run into plenty of people who live and die by it, even for everyday paddling. I long ago quite arguing with them. Their usual justifications are “it cuts the wind better” and “it gives my stroke more power” (I fail to see why, but since I am using a GP 95% of the time none of them would listen to me anyway.)
I think it is more of an ingrained habit for some (i do notice it is more prevalent with folks who come from a WW paddling background). I agree with your points and also feel it puts undo strain on the wrists from the constant rotation to orient the blade face on each stroke.
1 Like
There have been a number of exchanges on Greenland paddle sizing and types on this forum that you can find on “search”. Here is one from a few years ago that has links to some good surveys of what sizes and styles of GP’s a range of users has. A couple of amusing digressions as well.
Oops and sorry – Qajaqusa has not archived those links. But you can search the site for related discussions.
The first GP I made for myself was a 240. It is now a 220 in use by a friend. I think the fingers over the blade method gives you a paddle that is too long. But, each of us is different and it takes experimentation to get it right.
I use an adjustable paddle and sometimes change the length and feather as I paddle.
I’ve never seen the sense of using a feathered paddle due to wind resistance. This would seem to suggest that you are always paddling directly into the wind (I know it often seems that way). On very windy days I just use a lower angle style with the blades closer to the water. Using a feathered paddle because it is more comfortable for some paddlers or seems easier on the wrists is a perfectly valid reason.
I paddle with an unfeathered Euro paddle. The advantage is that paddling unfeathered I can paddle with essentially any paddle, factory or homemade. You’d have to look very hard to find a paddle with a sole fixed paddle angle other than 0° these days.
I started out trying various feather angles and finally settled on an unfeathered paddle. I was most comfortable with that.
My solution for sizing Greenland Paddles is very simple.
15 paddles
5 of three different widths
the 5 all having one inch difference in their actual blade lengths from each other
All with adjustable loom lengths
all built off modifications of the same plug for complete uniformity
My method is …try what you think…
4 Likes