Options
Floor boards are so I don’t have to baby it getting in and out - walk feet over ribs, etc. Also for rotation/comfort on longer paddles. Will add quite a bit of weight as even 1/4" oak is heavy.
Hatch is being considered for non-stop paddles, ocean use where popping the skirt’s a bad idea with lower rear deck (hatch would be at highest point and small volume), and a cockpit fit that pretty much precludes grabbing stuff from inside anyway.
I really don’t want a bag hanging down in there though so will probably skip it and keep stuff in/on PFD or secured inside behind me with hydration bladder. All I’d really keep in it would be cell/vhf and some food. Other places I can keep those - and rarely access tehm anyway. If I need VHF that bad I’m probalby out of the boat anyway - or it would be on PFD to begin with.
Hmm,… think you just helped me talk myself out of it.
Ribbing
I’m not the one who needs to be concerned about too few ribs. 
Cheri ans Alex are both small and light you know…
I’ve got so many I had to leave a set out. “Only” 23 now - still almost twice what yours will have- and thicker too. Like I said - heavy qajaq - should be a good 40 lbs. Still, not bad for a nearly 20’ boat purposely built a bit on the tough side.
Yup - mine’s about 14" longer and an 5/8" narrower - give or take - than what you said Peter was making you.
re
So are you implying that I am not light and small? harumph!
Alex and Cheri’s boat are a lot lower volume than what I am getting but mine is being built in proportion to my size. The number of ribs, and the construction methods that Pete uses have been proven with over 50 boats built and apparently he even has some fame in sof circles for his no rib “storm” SOF. He tells me that this boat was donated to the SOF community at large and that he occasionally gets e-mails as to its whereabouts.
I am really not too concerned over the number of ribs as I understand the extra strength is really only necessary for hauling lots of dead meat and gear around, none of which I plan on doing. It certainly won’t affect the seaworthiness of the boat and I don’t plan in engaging in any manatee pulls or quajaq jumping.
Don’t you think a dry bag would work just as well as a day hatch? seems like a lot of work
Paul
Dry bag?
Dry bags are for camping/expeditions.
How are you going to access it to get to stuff from and ocean cockpit? In waves?
Oh, I foget - other people stop and get out a lot for shore breaks during paddles! Me - I usually just paddle.
If I add a hatch (later) it will be a small 4" with a bag. Room for just a few things I might want to access while underway. Not much work at all really. Cut a circle between forward deck stringers, and make a bit of backing ring that's supported by same stringers - add some GOOP and bolt it in. Quick and easy - nearly flush.
Please don't misunderstand my other comments - not meaning to talk down Pter's qajaqs at all - particularly since I've never seen one. 12 ribs on an 18.5' boat does concern me though - or at least makes me curious. All 3 construction books I have, plus numerous examples in other books and online of all shapes and sizes and uses of skinboats all show a typically stouter and more redundant construction. You may not be "hauling lots of dead meat" - but even a VERY small wave weighs a few tons.
That said - mine may be overkill - but not much of a deviation from historically proven constructions.
Aside from strength - I wonder how fair the hull lines can stay when the stringers are spanning wider spacing gaps. My stringers are not to big in cross section and would wobble in and out from rib to rib if I had only 12. Thicher stringers would hold shape better and keep the skin farther off the ribs (on concern I have in skin may bow in and hit some ribs).
Anyway - like I said - we'll have some intersting differences to compare. Yours can be the pretty, light, professionally built/proven x50 one. Mine will be the homely, heavy, homebuilt experiment.
I had the frame finished yesterday but decided to redo the front deck stringers (bigger and longer so I can rescue lighter duty qajaqs! ;)
One more quick piece to cut and peg in, a few things to lash - and it's oil and photo time.
Then maybe the shrink wrap test. Wish I could finish today so I'd be ready to test tomorrow - but SOME people seem to expect me to sit around all day today climbing the walls!
a couple comments
> Please don’t misunderstand my other comments - not meaning to
talk down Pter’s qajaqs at all - particularly since I’ve never seen one.
12 ribs on an 18.5’ boat does concern me though - or at least
makes me curious. All 3 construction books I have, plus numerous
examples in other books and online of all shapes and sizes and uses
of skinboats all show a typically stouter and more redundant
construction. You may not be “hauling lots of dead meat” - but
even a VERY small wave weighs a few tons.
The people I know that have one of Peter’s qayaqs seem to use them mainly for rolling and choose other boats if paddling in rougher water. Not clear how well they would survive general use. I like to try one but so far I’m too big to fit into any I’ve seen.
I had the frame finished yesterday but decided to redo the front deck
stringers (bigger and longer so I can rescue lighter duty qajaqs!
The kayak I built in Mark Starr’s class used oak stringers forward and aft. They have been strong enough for assisted rescues (so far).
Ralph
When do you get your SOF?
I want to see PICTURES, Paul!! Don’t worry about staging your perfect rolling in the new boat, just unwrap it from the container, point the camera, etc.
SOON – so I can bask in Qajaq envy until mine is built!
Scott
A couple of comments
I think we are discussing apples and oranges here. There are so many different variations to sof building that any one thing over the other can’t possibly have any additional quantitative merit unless a specific attribute is being looked for and even then it would only apply to that boat anyway.
A 18.5 inch boat with 19 inch beam, depending on who built it can perform quite differently. The expertise (or lack of) the paddler will also play a major roll in initial and subsequent impressions of the boat.
There are pictures of Peter standing up in his quajaqs on the water and sitting on the back deck. He weighs 225. I will include the link as soon as I find it.
found it:
http://www.kayakforum.com/gallery/MATB2003?page=5
look at all the pages…great stuff!
In heavier seas, the expertise of the paddler will have a final say on the success of that paddle. From crest to crest the distance is 7 times the height of the wave. So a 2 foot wave set will have a 14 foot distance minimum between crests. 3 foot 21 feet etc. (you know someone told me that…I am not that smart!)
Unless you are surfing which I certainly do not intend to do with that boat, I don’t think that there is any structural advantage to having more ribs or heavier construction. In fact, I suspect that a smaller lighter boat will do better in “conditions”. But then again, what do I know?
I do know that I do not want a do all boat. This is not going to be a camper or extended tourer. It will be a day tripper, a roller, a sprinter, and I will have loads of fun with it in bigger waves.
Here is an excerpt from an e-mail I received from Peter on Christmas:
(the sled he is talking about is one of those plastic roll up sleds from walmart to aid in sliding into the boat)
It was 0800, 25 Dec 2005. The air was 30 degrees the water was 34 degrees, wind out of the North at 5 MPH. I was dressed in thick wool socks, poly-pro heavy weight long-john tops and bottoms, Dry suit, Tuilik. I found the sled took up too much room with the clothes I was wearing. After removing the sled, I got back in and fastened the Tuilik. Slid in easily, seating is comfortable. A bystander commented, that’s really tight around your face. With 225 lbs aboard, 1/2 inch freeboard. Can easily lay back flat on aft deck. Paddled out 100 yards and turned around, can’t feel left thumb. Decided not to roll. Primary and secondary stability, excellent, accelerates very well, feels fast. Put back on roof rack, boat was covered with ice when I took it off the rack 10 minutes later at home. If you don’t love it send it back, I’ll keep it.
Works for me!
Paul
Kris: don’t know the exact date it will arrive. Probably ship on the 28th. Lets plan a launch for both of our boats… Probably deserves at least an adult beverage or two…
You got anybody
to help you out with the back-sculling brace, or do you already have yours down? It’s easy in a kayak like that and it’s essential.
When I first hopped into my SOF I was pleasantly surprised at how it feels like the kayak is so much further away from you, or below you.
People wonder why Greenland kayaker have so many rolls, well you’ll find out But it’s a lot of fun.
I got nuttin
except a lot of determination I guess.
well I have a couple of rolls down pretty consistently. I suspect that I will need some guidance real soon as i am concerned that the ease of which I will be able to get up will lead to some pretty sloppy technique.
Am loking forward to trying out everything I can. Will have to beg and cajole some instruction somewheres.
Paul
Launch date
Unless Peter ships via slow boat or mule train yours should be launching before mine. Take lots of pictures.
My frame is done!!! (see other thread) I still have to complete the coaming, sew skin, coat (and recoat, and recoat…), and do all the deck fittings.
You should be able to fit into mine (might even seem a bit loose compared to yours as I have pretty large clearance under masik). My pre-planning for using the trick of sliding in past the foot brace was a good idea. Taller folks will be able to test paddle - and I’ll be able to slip farther into the qajaq for advantage on some rolls.
4 to 5 days
is what he thinks. I will get the tracking numbers etc etc when it ships on Wednesday.
Actually what I would like to do is bring it over to near you to launch. for some reason, I just don’t want to launch it on the lake first. Weird huh?
(probably be a lot smarter to get my balance etc before trying it out on ocean swells but I have never been accused of being smart.)
Paul
reply
Great to see you have become an expert on SOF paddling and construction so quickly. Haave fun with the boat.
Ralph
Launch site
I could launch out front - but wont.
Local tradition is to go to George English. I’ve tried 3 of my boats there. Charlie does his plastic wrap and new boat launches there too. It’s just about right. You can park right by the put in, it’s quiet, etc. My canal is quiet too - but not a place for rolling or wet exits or other recommended first time activities.
BTW - I’m scheduled for LASIK Friday. No salt/fresh water swimming for 3 weeks! Good thing I can roll! Seriously - next weekend is a definte no paddle. Didn’t get out this weekend due to holiday stuff and cranking to get frame done (and doc has me in glasses - which I hate to paddle with as I can’t risk losing them - and don’t have prescription sun glasses either! Suchs for anything but flat watter/cloudy days!). Oh well, should all be worth it. Finally be able to stop worrying about losing a contact and can ditch the mask (well, after the 3 week recoup period anyway)!
who me?
not me at all. Greyak is the expert. I just talk through my hat.
“If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance…baffle them with bullsh*t”
guess which one I do?
Paul
Expert? Not me Bruddah!
I’m a nube! My 1st SOF - and never paddled one before. I’m also not star rated by any paddling organizations like you! L
What you’re seeing is beginner’s luck. I aim to stay a beginner too - by continually beginning something else. Alway so much more to learn.
Regarding SOF - I’m just stupid enough to think I can not only pull it off, but to think I can actually design something a bit different and have it work as intended!
I’m also smart enough to see what has been done on 100s of SOF and other kayaks and pick and choose from a lot of available wisdom from their builders/designers.
s&g’s
I found that comment really telling about the people you know who were using S&G’s being back into their fiberglass boats, and of course your comment about Jim about par for the course for you…funny though…
All goes along with my thoughts that no one particular boat should be used for everything specifically because of the trade-offs involved when building one. Commercially made boats strive for the most number of features that will be acceptable to the public in general.
P
Balance - warning rambling with no point
Design and selection is all about balance and trade-offs.
Trying to do it all in one boat is a bit of folly as you note - but depends on what you want to do.
I like to cover distance and want to work on more rolls. Like to spend more time on the ocean too. I think my design and build reflect those uses.
Might make more sense to have a dedicated faster open water tourer/racer (or just dedicate time to the surf ski) and a dedicated super LV rolling boat. Something in me rejects that though (for now), and I don’t have enough time to really break it up for multiple boats/skills.
I also can’t help thinking that a bunch of fancy rolls that you can only only do in a very specialized boat (to the point of being otherwise useless) on calm water is actually getting AWAY from what the skills are about (but fun to do anyway).
I do want to work on more rolling skills - but want them to be in the context of actually paddling, not for their own sake at this point. In Inuit terms - I want the skills in my everyday work/hunting boat. In my recreational paddler’s world, that means my day touring boat - and that means it will have to have a little more freeboard and volume than a roller, and be a little less extreme than a racer.
I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with the G-style paddlers who build specialized rolling only boats. They got this directly from the Greenlanders and their annual competition where some use different boats for the rolling and racing portions. Many others use the same boat for both. To me this seems more in the original spirit of the skills (and limits have been put on the rolling boats), but my opinions is irrelevant.
Qajaq knowledge was nearly lost - and pretty much skipped a generation. The current paddlers learned from their Grandfathers - to preserve the traditions - but not in a fixed way. It is a living tradition, not a historical record.
I’d like to see the reaction to the idea of “rolling” and “racing” qajaqs 100 years ago. They’d certainly understand, but probably laugh at the folly of such specialization. A qajaq you can roll easily but can’t hunt and handle weather in? A qajaq that is faster but harder to roll and handle? Why?
Compared to competition boats mine could be looked at as some awkward cross between a racing and rolling boat - and so less capable at either. Others would consider the specialized boats to be the handicapped vessels. Depends on who’s looking and why.
My qajaq is hardly traditional either. I added what I thought were “modern” lines. Swedeform, fuller ends with no pinch, less pronounced skeg (was designed with none - but added a little at after getting some direction from the wood), more extreme length-to-width ratio …
Then I turned my attention from current Greenland boats, and those of the past 150 years, and looked at some examples from 400 years ago. Very similar differences to what I’ve done! Interesting, as neither they nor I needed boats used with firearms or other heavy gear on deck.
Looking at it another way, it’s really just my QCC 700 with 2" knocked off the beam and a few off the rear deck - adapted to SOF construction. Result hopefully being better fit, easier to roll, less affectd by wind, and at least as fast. We’ll see.
Anyway, the trade-offs are both the fun and the frustration. Big part of why I wanted to build myself. I won’t use it for “everything” - but I hope (if it paddles reasonably well) that it will cover 80% of my needs. The rag-tag mixed fleet out back can handle take up the slack. Then there’s always the next purchase (though nothing was getting me excited - another reason I built), or the next build…
Sounds like you’re having fun!
Can’t wait to hear how the boat works. Wanted to address something you said though.
“I also can’t help thinking that a bunch of fancy rolls that you can only only do in a very specialized boat (to the point of being otherwise useless) on calm water is actually getting AWAY from what the skills are about (but fun to do anyway).”
I kind of thought that way too when I was putting together my LV S&G boat. I figured I’d learn a bunch of those cool rolls that could only be done in that boat. Amazingly everyone of those rolls I have transferred over to my composite P&H Capella, including the storm roll, forward finishing roll, angel (or windowshade), balance brace, and the one where the blade goes under the armpit for a one handed sweep. And all of these have been performed between 1 and 3 foot chop.
Anyway just wanted to point out for anyone with similar misconceptions regarding greenland rolling technique. The skill goes well beyond a fancy show, there is a definite practical application.
Good luck with the new boat.
Randy
Practical applications
I understand that use - as a transitional/trainer boat. Makes sense - and on that level we’re making the same point from different ends of the boat.
I was really talking more about the boat not being transferable to other uses than the skills not being transferable. In that regard, I find can’t justify all the time and effort for a one trick pony - this time…
rambling.
yep. Interestingly enough, your comments about using the boat for 80% fall exactly into what I was envisioning for the quajaq I am getting. Still feel it will do great for just about everything except be a pack horse. the number of ribs, depending on the construction, even though talked about a lot here, may not even be an issue, and acording to Peter, isn’t an issue. the boat will not be a dedicated rolling boat, but it will have a very low aft deck to facilitate rolling. If I had wanted a dedicated rolling boat, 17 feet would have been ample with extreme low volume. We went for additional length for volume and speed. Freeboard for Peter at 225lbs was an inch to half an inch…with me it should be higher at 200 lbs. so no issue clambering back on the back deck. All in all I fully expect it to perform in pretty much the same way you expect your boat to perform. But having said that, if we turned them upside down and dropped bowling balls and cement blocks on them, I am sure yours would survive better than mine. And thinking practically, neither construction will make a damned bit of difference to a tiger shark anyway.
Anyway, It will be here within the week and yours will be ready then too. Be great fun to just paddle and feel the waves.
Paul