Scrambling on back deck
If yours has 1/2" freeboard with Peter in it you’ll be lucky to have an inch. Keep in mind that’s with you in the cockpit, your weight over the center of buoyancy, and the boat in trim. Move aft of the cockpit and you’ll quickly begin to submerge the stern - possibly flooding the boat - and almost definitely doing so if water is not dead calm.
That’s that they mean when they say “roll or die” as things do not tend to go well if you have to exit an LV qajaq. Most non-rolling solo rescues are not likely to work well the lower volume you go - except assisted rescues if practiced with this type of boat, and re-enter and roll, assuming you can pump out in either case.
Somehow, even if I have a full inch more freeboard than you are describing, I doubt I’ll be able to do my sidesaddle cowboy reentry I use with my QCC, or any cowboy without some serious submarine action. Maybe. We’ll see and we can have some fun trying different reentries anyway, paddling swamped, etc.
An inch or a little less is what I was shooting for originally - then rethought it a bit. An inch or less is great for rolling work - but in beam or following seas you could find yourself having control issues. A wet ride is fine - particularly in warm waters here - but it depends on what part of the boat is wet and when. A bow knifing through on an LV hull might be fun - even desirable in some cases. A submerged stern is different and will rob your ability to maneuver and take a good chunk of stability with it. Ever had those rear quartering wave wiggles? Imagine them without the boat riding high enough to be able to respond to your body input - with those waves grabbing and pushing the stern around…
More of those pesky trade-offs.
I have no idea what mine will be - but now after taking advice from people who actually paddle SOF in various conditions (be careful here are there are more comments floating around on freeboard from the rollaholics who want extremes) - I’m hoping it’s around 1 1/2" +/- and is not as critical to me to be ultra-low as I’d originally envisioned.
This submerged stern control issue is another reason I opted to go swedeform and carry the volume aft. More lift on quartering/following/surfing. Also better for speed IMO.
This is alos a big reason why I’d like to do a shrink wrap test. Trouble is I have no available daylight time until the weekend - and can’t do it then as I’ll be fresh out of eye surgery. I don’t want to put it off 'til later as I’d waste a lot of time I could be using to skin and finish it…
Honestly, I think the way my ribs are if I did want to make changes to freeboard I couldn’t do it by just moving the stringers (I’d lose optimum skin clearance). I’d have to cut down the ribs and stems. Much more work and only allows lowering. Given that, I may just skin it and take my chances. Original design was supposed to be under 1" - and finished boat ended up deeper by almost and inch - so I may just get lucky and end up with better than I’d wanted. I think I’m too heavy for it to ride too high, and if too low - I’ll eat less!
One thing I’ll bet: With my chines at about 14" wide it will probably have a bit less initial stability than yours - unless I got really lucky and carrying the volume out toward the ends (and being longer) works some naval engineering voodoo.
Side note: I REALLY need to clean my apartment!
1/2 inch freeboard
You are right about the inch. I spoke to Peter today and he said the same thing. However, he saidthat there is no issue with doing a cowboy style re-entry. he is going to send me a video on cd one of these days showing how he doesit.
One of the things he mentioned today was having a paddle float and in the event that you do have a wet exit, to tie it to the front deck line and blow it up as much as possible and then position yourself using your flotation device (pfd) behind the cockpit to aid in lifting up the boat and you can drain the sof very quickly. Then as you flip it over, you secure your gp to the rear deck lines behind the coaming as a outrigger. lunge over the coaming and twist/sit on the back deck and gently balance on that side as you slide your feet in.
Definitely a practice move but nice to hear about anyway and something for me to work on. Course I don’t plan on falling out of my quajaq either. (Actually think it may be hard to do) He timed it and said that under three minutes from exiting to re-entry.
We talked about following seas also as I was concerned about it and he stated that the way the boat is designed with some upsweep of the bow and stern, that they both act as a skeg so I expect that it will take some serious getting used to but will be manageable.
thinking about it, I have very little experience in a hard chine boat (couple of 5 minute paddles), have no experience in a SOF, have even less experience in a low volume boat. Yep, this is a leap of faith and I am really really looking forward to gaining this experience and mastering some more skills.
We gonna have some fun Kris!
Paul
A little thought on LV and rescues
My low volume is a stitch and glue that is 17’X19". I forget the depth but with me in it at 200 lbs I get about 1" of freeboard. Here is a pic with Topher demoing my boat at Raystown http://community.webshots.com/photo/201943676/201947826BsTtBW .
Now from personal experience I will tell you there is no way you will effectively self rescue in that boat in anything other than flat calm water. The first day I had it out, Airwave and I were in a channel with about 2 foot clapotis and I was paddling with a GP for the first time. I went over and blew the roll and exited the boat. Airwave did a T rescue, emptied the boat, and leaned over the bow as I climbed in. Even with the extra buoyancy of his boat assisting, the stern of my boat completely submerged and filled the cockpit well over half way. Resulting in much pumping. Since I wasn’t practiced in GP use at the time I came out 2 more times with the same result every time. Keep in mind at that time I had been boating 7 years and had practiced paddle float, stirrup, and cowboy re-entries almost weekly during paddling season.
Since then I have tried every trick I can think of and the only way to effectively get back in timely is to re-enter and roll. It still fills the boat, but it is quicker and leaves you in a useful position rather than balancing high sided on a half filled wobbly boat.
Or better yet learn a bombproof roll and never come out again. That’s what I did.
Randy
Add tiny 6" wavlets to that description-
- and you mamy begin to see the losing battle you’d be waging as 5" of every 6" wavelet goes right across the deck, and 4" of that over the coaming lip…
The seesaw on the paddle float trick may get water out while you’re out - but it will go right back in when you do unless the water’s very calm and you’re real smoother too.
I’d suggest some really good custom float bags to fill as much volume as possible (still can take on lots of water). Some would suggest a sea sock as well.
Or, just stay in the boat. I expect the same issues.
stay in the boat
pretty confident that I will be able to stay in the boat and roll back up. More practice every day too. Went out for an hour this afternoon and rolled about ten times just because I hadn't for a week while travelling. did a bunch of bracing and sculls and backwards figure eights etc just to get the feel back in the boat.
Sea sock is an option but where would you peg it to in the boat? Or does it just lay loose like a shroud? (no pun intended but it seems as if an exit with a loose seasock could have some serious issues with entanglement. float bags are a definite option but you are right, you won't gain much and still have lots of water to pump but maybe it is the best solution.
Kris...why don't you try making a couple of cloth bulkheads and seal them? put a tube or a plug to drain as they will not be perfectly watertight but worth a shot?
Hey I know! I'll get an electric pump!
Re-enter and roll:
I have been practicing trying to put on the sprayskirt while underwater before rolling back up from a wet exit. wonder how hard this would be to do in a sof? Not the easiest with a big cockpit like the tempest but I have managed it a couple of times. Certainly minimizes the need for pumping anyway.
Paul
Pretty nice S&G
Though I’ve seen it before - it’s alway nice to see again!
Thanks for that 1st hand account. Better than my rambling about “what ifs”.
volume / seaworthiness
1st float bags.
I will be putting in float bags. Haven’t decided yet whether I will buy commercialy or try to make some from heat sealable nylon. Kinda waiting until the boat gets here to measure the inside dimensions. If I do this right, this should eliminate the issues with being able to do a cowboy style rescue in seas and, this should significantly reduce the volume of water in the boat.
As to overall volume: there are marked differences in the boat I am getting and the boats built for Alex (schizopak) and Cheri Perry. their boats are specifically designed for rolling with the lowest possible volume. Mine does not have these requirements to that extreme even though I fully expect to roll it quite easily (cheater boat)but it was important that the boat be able to handle open sea environments. I also wanted to have a boat that would be used even if I did have a big turkey dinner last night.
Kris: sorry about the timing on the Lasik surgery. You will be a lot happier with it I am sure. Sucks to have to wait but it is only for a week or two before you can relax.
when the boat gets here I will bring it to George English and you can look it over and I will launch from there. You can take lots of pictures of me falling over a few times until the balance gods wake up.
Paul
Balance Gods
I have already made several blood offerings to the Balance Gods for this one - another reason to build yourself! 
Also hold the title of “Trusty Shellback”, granted by the mighty Neptunus Rex.
All that remains is to attempt to gain Sedna’s favor…
Make custom float bags
" will be putting in float bags. Haven’t decided yet whether I will buy commercialy or try to make some from heat sealable nylon. "
Make the float bags. It is very easy to do and you will certainly need a custom length tube for the bow bag and the maximum possible volume filled.
Ralph
thoughts…
Cloth bulkheads seem to be an elegant solution if you can make them watertight. Pavia apparently has installed these with some nice success. If you can spare the cost and weight, an electric bilge pump would also be a nice thing to have in a SOF although with anything electronic, their is always the possibility of untimely issues. I’ve actually been thinking of a way to install a small electric bilge pump in my qajaq since a hand pump is tough to use given the qajaq’s stability (or lack thereof) and small cockpit.
As for reenter and rolling, depending on the SOF, that probably is your best bet in regards to capsize recovery in the event of a swim. Unfortunately for me, that isn’t an option due to the extreme tight fit of the qajaq. As for putting the sprayskirt on underwater, when I’ve practiced this, I found that it doesn’t really limit the amount of water in the cockpit by a significant amount. I’d say you’re better off simply rolling up and then attaching the sprayskirt.
re-enter and roll
It was a significant difference with the big cockpit of the tempest but even Peter mentioned this. He said that the amount of water would be minor with a re-enter and roll with the small ocean cockpit.
small electric bilge pump huh?
I was only half kidding! but I think Kris may need it more L maybe I will get him one as a boatwarming present…I am not going to mind resucing him but that boat of his full of water will be heavy! L
Paul
What’s The Word…?
oh yea.. BLASPHEMY!
An electic pump in a lv sof? Just don't paddle one out far if you have any doubts. Just stay near shore and play rolling.
Seems to me, if you want to start worrying about coming out of the boat and having the backups to backups, why not just get a brit boat and the foot pump and the day hatch, and the... etc. By the time yous finish putting a footpump and other stuff, the simplicity and the light weight of the SOF, which to me are the attraction, are overwhelmed by the add-ons.
sing
Semi serious.
not blasphemy!
Heck, Harvey put an electric bilge pump in one of his latest SOF qajaqs that he built. Actually I definitely do not paddle my qajaq far from shore as I’ve done enough practice in regards to flooding the qajaq do know that if my qajaq flooded out in open water, I’d be in DEEP TROUBLE (sinks like a rock with me in it!)
You know I have a brit boat already and actually I have no worries about coming out of the boat. I do have worries that my tuilik (which has been stretched to fit a keyhole) does not create a tight enough seal as I tend to take on a lot of water when rolling. (I am going to make a tuilik in the next couple of weeks which should hopefully address this.) I’ve been considering the pump mostly to limit the number of times I need to empty my qajaq during rolling sessions. Semi serious as well.
alex
Kinda have to agree with Sing
Seems pretty blasphemous to put anything electronic in a quajaq. But to be absolutely fair about this, I suspect that if the seal hunting industry was in place in small inuit villages today, that the kayaks would be fiberglass or plastic, with pumps and any other modern conveniences designed to make their lives easier.
Just a thought.
I will make my float bags and will try to practice re-enter and rolls as well as cowboy style entries with the float bags in place…but mostly I will practie not falling out of the boat at all in any conditions.
Paul
meet with Greyak
We will be meeting tomorrow for the shrink wrap test and I will take lots of pics! I am very excited for Kris as I know he has really put his heart and soul into it. I hope it is everything he wants it to be.
I also get to try out his ski!
Paul
After my last “wrap test” I took it home
and pulled all the chines off of it and made it better. Just remember Greyak that the qajaq in wrap form will be much more stable and slower than the finished skin and if it’s hot out it will be much much more so.
On my very first wrap test I paddled a quarter mile out and found the boat getting slower and slower I then took a look inside and saw the plastic buldging up through the ribs a few inches. I barely got it back to shore.
Have fun tho guys
Wraping technique/materials?
What did you do? (maybe I should do othewise? L)
I’m a slow learner and would like at least 10-15 minutes to play.
Guys
Instead of the cloth bulkheads, why don’t you do it like Mike Silvius did by putting in foam bulkheads using 1" foam and glue/aquaseal/whatever? He has mentioned that it is easier before skinning than after, but that it can be done after as well.
See this link: http://community.webshots.com/album/147337822dSvQBP
Scott
interesting
but don’t know how you could possibly keep it from leaking. I wonder if you could make this into a removable piece that would keep “most” of the water out while scrambling back in?
I went out yesterday in the tempest and i am trying to figure out how in the world I am going to be able to get into an ocean cockpit 15 x 19 inner dimensions without promptly falling over. I suspect that this will be the biggest challenge to do by myself without damaging the boat or the paddle. I guess I will get used to it but frankly I don’t see how I will manage without somoeone or something holding the boat.
just pre-boat jitters…all Greyaks fault.
Paul
Getting in
Watch me tomorrow. I’ll show you what that falling thing looks like. I can even do it with the ski after getting on and padlding a bit L
With OC and flat rear deck your GP becomes very useful. An integrated system. It will make sense once you’ve done it. Kim’s Pintail is the same, and I already have to do a little wiggle to get in my QCC after moving the seat forward.
Few hundred feet of platic wrap on - and still feels flimsy. Not very heavy plastic I’ll keep adding layers later. Ended up being up LATE getting the coaming together and lip on. Seemed to work, hope it holds. A little cleaning and sanding, and holes to sew it on - and it’s good to go for the skinning. Low profile at about 15/16" tall with 1/2" overhang.