Epic 18 vs. QCC Q700 comparison photos

-- Last Updated: Oct-21-04 10:21 PM EST --

Courtesy of Franklin.


The Q700 shown is the current (3rd generation - cockpit 5" aft of center) version. You can ID all three by the deck rigging. Mine (gen 2 - cockpit 8" aft of centered), and original (gen 1 - centered cockpit) has three straps on the aft hatch and double "X" front bungees. Gen 1 has wider rear bungees, Velcro hatch straps, and the old rudder (if it has one) with the notched deck. Some gen 2's have Velcro straps, some have buckles, and the aft bungee "X" is narrow enough that it works well to hold a GP for paddle float rescue - but wide blades could be tough. Gens 1 & 3 wider.

Only A Thought

– Last Updated: Oct-22-04 12:15 AM EST –

As I have said it before, I hardly ever try boats before buying them. I believe that if a boat fits technically my needs and wants, I must adapt to it (not backwards).

Nonetheless, I always spend a great deal of time analizing the hull of the boat, not the deck.

To me, in orden of importance:
75% the hull
20% the paddle entry
5% the overall deck

95% of the pictures compare the deck of both boats only a couple the hull of them.


PS: only a though

I will check out the pictures when i get home as web shots is blocked at work… But from the info I have gatherd. i would be willing to bet that with me in the epic i would have the same problem!!!

Appears the QCC has a bit more
rocker than the Epic from those photos. I guess.

Regarding the rudder mount, judging from where the cables penetrate the hull on the QCC, I might worry that moving the rudder mount up as you want to do will add some friction there. At the very least it isn’t going to look proper.

Actually, my overriding reaction is that hanging that rudder on the stern is a pretty nasty thing to do to either of these boats, visually. There just has to be a better way.


There is a better way
It’s called a skeg. Real Purty - but won’t suit the racers OR the lily dippers!

Just different, I have one with a skeg…

I guess,
and I have ceased (I think) the mental battle with mine after shimming the pivot so that it doesn’t clunk at a half-deployed setting. Makes the Caribou light-wind tracking behavior suit me better, still turns pretty easily, and doesn’t add any obvious drag.

Still, I wonder about rudder necessity in a long boat such as these, if conditions get bad. Hard enough to turn the 'bou around sometimes in wind and waves, though certainly that has a lot to do with lack of this paddler’s abilities.

After looking at pictures of the WSBS T-Bolt, I thought man, I want an under-stern rudder on my next boat. Until someone pointed out that not only do you have to worry about rocks and logs, you have to worry about snagging weeds too. Sort of lost interest after that.


The Buccaneer Sea Kayak from South Africa has a rudder blade that drops down like a skeg - then pivots like a rudder once fully deployed. Could be a bit better executed (all metal blade) - but sound concept.

As for turning that 'bou there’s an easy fix : Skeg up to turn! Then back down to whatever degree needed for straight running in cross/tail winds. My 700’s a bear to turn with full skeg - much easier to bring it up, bring her around, then re-adjust skeg as needed. Different heading after a turn needs a different amount of skeg anyway.

and the current QCC-skeg set up is a PITA to fine tune!! but i know how to fix that…

Understern vs. Overstern
The main disadvantage to an overstern rudder is when it ‘ventilates’ or comes clear of the water, particularly ‘fun’ in large swells or wind driven waves as the wave moves forward under the boat, thus hanging the stern out in the clear blue sky. Scenario: Boat surfs wave, paddler steers via rudder thinking, ‘This is fun!’ Wave passes under boat, stern comes clear of wave, boat begins to broach, paddler thinks, ‘Whoa! This is not fun!’ (Brace, brace.)

Alternate scenario: Paddler uses understern rudder in weed filled lake, rudder jams, paddler curses, stops and ‘deweeds’ clogged rudder, continues, rudder jams (repeat refrain). Alternate refrain: Rudder gouges rock filled bottom, paddler curses, et al…

For the record, paddled the Epic frequently. The housing does not drag.

Oh, I know all about
using the skeg up/down to facilitate turning. Works fine if the only problem is a strong wind. It still can be difficult in big waves when the boat prefers to align with them, against your efforts to rotate it. Like I said, I know much of this is a paddler skill issue.

I also know we don’t need to start another skeg/rudder debate. I’m just sure of it.


Yeah, the Epic certainly
has the engineering for that rudder nicely done, about as good as can be done for a low-profile stern, I’d think. But it still doesn’t look very good.


I dont know

– Last Updated: Oct-22-04 3:34 PM EST –

http://www.epicpaddles.com/newsletter/archives/september2003.htm Look at the small picture in the top right hand corner, then look at the rudder area, looks like a lot of splash going on!!

Interesting, especially
since the housing appears clear of the water. Could there be an alternative explanation, such as splash from the last paddle stroke on the right side?


Works like a charm
no slips ever - always can tell where it is - do very small adjustments easily - much smoother operating - no more leaks…

some more hip action on wave tops then? Or maybe we could swap boats and you’d see how easily that Caribou spins compared to something with another foot and a half in the water? L

Sometimes conditions conspire to make it tough no matter what.

Another image (from Yahoo search)

Good eyes.

Picture 039 really show that off. Next time anyone tells me the 700’s lacking rocker I’ll point them there.

I should find a flat spot and take pics of the Q700 and Pintail side by side. the Pintail’s well rockered but its finer and more upswept ends give the iillusion of even more than is there. The QCC is opposite - it’s lines disguise it’s rocker.

Interesting posts…
I’ve got to admit the problems I’ve seen with the rudder on QCC’s 700 make me wonder what the guys in Wisconson at QCC’s factory are thinking.

I paddled behind swedge in his first 700 and noted the rudder housing dragging audibly to both of us. On his second QCC, Phil suggested using the large, top mounted, pin type housing…and the drag was even worse! To their credit, QCC accepted the kayak back and gave swedge a skegged boat. What bugs me is I later saw swedges returned kayak on their website for sale in their slightly used/deal section. The thought of them reselling it to someone who doesn’t know any better really makes me wonder why they don’t fix this problem?

I would suggest a longer smartrack type foil rudder that would be stored on the rear deck like the rudder on my Perception Corona and deployed and stored by pulling on a cord. While not the ideal, (is there any ideal storage solution for a rudder?) this setup would elimate the need for a bracket on the stern and the rudder wouldn’t stick up so high.

I owned a 500 with a smartrack type rudder before I bought my 700, and was always afraid that if I bumped the stern hard against something, the two screws in the stern that hold the bracket would rip out!!

One last note: Based on the pictures, it appears that the QCC is a higher volume kayak because of the slope of deck in the front and back as it rises to the ends while the Epic is flatter. It also appears the Epic was a longer waterline length. Are these observations correct??


I dare say it looks to me
like the only part of that rudder that is really supposed to be submerged is the part starting below where the lift-line attaches. Presumably that’s where the touted airfoil shape begins. Even the Epic mount design does not appear to accomplish that too well.