Fast Kayak Woes for the Short Female Paddler: Need Advice

Advice
#1

Hi All,

I’m looking for some advice on fast sea kayaks suitable for short (5’1 and under) women. Sorry for the novel below.

I’m an experienced New England area sea kayaker. I’ve been wanting to get into a FSK rated boat forever, particularly with the goal of doing the Blackburn Challenge.

I’ve done the actual Blackburn course, but felt I was a bit too slow in my ancient Necky Elaho, which is at the poor end of the waterline length to width ratio in the sea kayak class. For those not familiar, the Blackburn uses the sound rowers classification on boat classes which can be found here: http://www.soundrowers.org/boat-classes/

Last year I did a ton of research, and talked to a few shop owners I trusted. I was frequently recommended an NDK Pilgrim or Pilgrim Explorer, but I was torn between NDKs and an Epic 18x. I wanted to buy used, which is fairly easy to do in New England.

I ended up finding a used Epic 18x sport at a very low price. Here is the problem. I’ve logged about 300 miles in this boat in conditions ranging from flat water, to tidal rivers, to open ocean and difficult conditions. The boat is incredibly fast. In flat water and rivers, which I usually find boring - this boat is super fun.

But, put it in the ocean and in any kind of conditions (normal or challenging) and I hate the boat. It is a tippy, squirrelly mess that is actually unpleasant for me to paddle. I’ve handled it just fine without capsize in all sorts of challenging conditions, I just don’t like how it feels. The Elaho, while slow as all get out was a boat that was so stable I was confident in downright dangerous conditions. With the Epic, I feel like previously “every day” conditions are crazy and the boat is in a constant state of “about to tip”. Somehow I always mange but I’m not longer enjoying sea kayaking. I worry about being in this boat in suddenly, truly dangerous conditions, something which can be a reality in the areas I paddle.

I am now trying to figure out if the Epic 18x is the wrong boat for me, or if this issue can be fixed. I’d like to stay in an FSK boat not only for racing, but to keep pace with my husband who is in a Greenland kayak. In the Elaho I would fall behind, in the Epic I’m pacing him with ease over very long distances and sometimes outpacing him.

Some of the issues I considered that could be contributing to my issues:

  1. The boat is higher volume. I’ve paddled both HV and LV kayaks and I prefer LV due to the fit because I’m small.

  2. We’ve played around with the seat/foot board position which helped marginally.

  3. We then considered that maybe I’m too light for the boat? I weigh about 40% of the total weight capacity of the boat. We were considering adding ballast but with how terrible it feels I’ve been dragging my feet on trying.

  4. Is it possible I’m just the type of person who is incompatible with a squirrelly boat? Or perhaps I’m incompatible due to my size/stature?

My question is then - is this boat issue fixable? Or would someone like myself be better served by one of the more traditionally stable, made for small people, but “faster” NDK models. If it helps, I’m also a weightlifter so my arm and leg strength is above average for a woman of my height.

Thanks!

#2

Take a look at the CD Prana, or one of the other CD Danish designs. You might also want to check out the Stellar Intrepid–the smaller one.

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#3

I can’t comment on the Epic but I paddle a Pilgrim Expedition. The boat is actually a bit higher volume than necessary for us small, light paddlers (I am a little under 5’3”) because it is a tripping boat. To someone our size with experience, it is plenty stable in rough water. I used to paddle the Explorer LV, which was even more stable but a lot of boat for a small person to push through the water, However, the Pilgrims still are very stable. (I have paddled the regular Pilgrim as a rental, twice.)

Speedwise, the PEX is no slug yet not what I’d consider fast like the Prijon Barracuda I once rented (which is too big). The PEX does respond well to higher effort, though. I have no idea how it would do as a race boat. It has a lot of rocker, which I love—and also means the waterline is short for a 17-footer, at least without the weight of camping gear added. Stability would not be a problem, though, and having rented an Elaho I can say the PEX is definitely faster.

I would not get the regular (shorter) Pilgrim because I could tell right away that the PEX was faster.

There is a new NDK replacing the PEX, called the Echo. You might check on that one.

#4

Do you need a Sit In kayak or wold you consider a Surfski? there are a lot of good options for low volume skis like the Carbonology Boost LV, the Epic V10L, Fenn Elite Spark, Nelo 550M, Stellar SES, and others. Those would all qualify for the HPK class, are quite fast, and designed for smaller people (and would all perform very will in the Blackburn and in open ocean conditions as well as flat water).
The Boost is probably the most stable of the bunch. All are skinnier than the Epic 18x, but I am not sure how much the kayak seating position affects stability compared to a surfski bucket. Also, looking at some pics on google it appears the 18x has a relatively flat hull. Most skis are semi-rounded, which means lower primary stability but also better handling in waves and slop. (flat bottoms are more affected by the wave angle and roll more forcefully to match the angle of the wave face vs a round bottom boat)

I find 19" in sloppy conditions still very manageable, but stability is very relative and a learned skill. If you want a sit-in there are a few smaller ladies on the board that can definitely point you in the right direction.

#5

@pikabike said:
I can’t comment on the Epic but I paddle a Pilgrim Expedition. The boat is actually a bit higher volume than necessary for us small, light paddlers (I am a little under 5’3”) because it is a tripping boat. To someone our size with experience, it is plenty stable in rough water. I used to paddle the Explorer LV, which was even more stable but a lot of boat for a small person to push through the water, However, the Pilgrims still are very stable. (I have paddled the regular Pilgrim as a rental, twice.)

Speedwise, the PEX is no slug yet not what I’d consider fast like the Prijon Barracuda I once rented (which is too big). The PEX does respond well to higher effort, though. I have no idea how it would do as a race boat. It has a lot of rocker, which I love—and also means the waterline is short for a 17-footer, at least without the weight of camping gear added. Stability would not be a problem, though, and having rented an Elaho I can say the PEX is definitely faster.

I would not get the regular (shorter) Pilgrim because I could tell right away that the PEX was faster.

There is a new NDK replacing the PEX, called the Echo. You might check on that one.

Ahh thanks a ton! Its great to hear from someone who has paddled all of the boats in question (with the exception of the epic). One of my preferred stores has a used LV pilgrim in the 50/50 layup right now which was tempting, but it is of course the short version. I was worried the short one would be slow despite being in the fast kayak class. The echo looks awesome but since its brand new, I can’t get it used and I don’t want to pay the full brand new NDK price (at least not right now!)

#6

If you are not sinking the Epic to its best waterline it will be more squirrely. If I am reading the above correctly, you are too light to do that. I question adding ballast for a boat that you want to use for higher performance. It seems at that use you want to be in a boat that fits right to start.

Per above, the shorter Pilgrim is intended to be turnier than the full length. Not what you want for racing. I have also heard good things about the Echo, supposedly a day boat length with longer boat speed for smaller paddlers. I haven’t been in one to vouch for it personally. But probably worth a trip to Peak’s Island in Portland ME to try one. Maine Island Kayak Company.

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#7

@magooch said:
Take a look at the CD Prana, or one of the other CD Danish designs. You might also want to check out the Stellar Intrepid–the smaller one.

Thanks! I’ll check both of those out.

#8

As for surfskis vs sit in, for right now I prefer a sit in because I use the boat year-ish round and often in places where a kayak is more practical. I figured a surf-ski might be a future purchase only for racing but not for my everyday ocean paddling.

#9

I’m a pretty new paddler, mostly used to flat conditions, but I was at a demo day earlier this year and paddled the CD Prana back to back with the Cetus MV. This was at the Newbury Store and the tide was such that we had 1-2 waves on the Parker River. The Prana was impressive under those conditions and my skill level. I also paddled a used Romany and Sirius L and they both terrified me, the Sirius more so, my skills were just barely up to snuff.

I picked the Cetus MV over the the Prana but it was close. There is a Cetus LV made but used might be hard to find. The older ones are pretty heavy, my MV is 66lbs (it was a leftover 2016 model). The new carbon infusion ones are much lighter, and yes, much more expensive.

Note, if I stand up tall I can hit 5’ 11’ and the Prana fit me fine, so keep that in mind.

#10

You have yourself a bit of a conundrum. You like the speed, but you’ve gone beyond the stability profile that you enjoy, including directional stability in waves.
High rocker and high volume bows designed to prevent your bow from diving in steep waves don’t lend themselves to efficiency at higher speeds. Concave curvature in the ends of a sea kayak don’t lend themselves to higher racing speeds. They do lend themselves to directional stability in wind and waves. Look at the hull of your Epic, all convex curvature right to the ends, and then any NDK, with concave curvature towards the ends. Every kayak looks to achieve a balance, and every kayaker too. I point this stuff out because in general, Epics and NDK’s are at opposite ends of a spectrum. You just have to determine whether a hull starts running up a resistance wall before you hit your desired cadence and speed. It’s great that you have the Epic and a paddling partner to guage against, as you’re in a position where you can feel it for yourself relatively quickly.
The NDK Greenlander series keeps all convex curvature, and I think they maintain very good directional stability - at least the Greenlander I own. The Greenlanders are still billed as their faster kayaks, but they also have the Pulse and Cadence now to take that end of the spectrum up a notch. I would try to find something a half step back, given your goals. But you definitely want to get to where you’re really enjoying your time on the water.

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#11

Have any of you smaller folks tried the Impex Force Category 3? That seems like it might have potential in this scenario?

#12

@magooch said:
Take a look at the CD Prana, or one of the other CD Danish designs.

Just want to note that the Prana and Prana LV are boats designed for the M-XL paddler, not a small paddler. I’m 5"4", 113#, and had to add an additional 3/4" foam to the existing thigh braces. The boat came with no hip pads so I added my own, which were recently replaced with a set CD gave me. Fit is much better now.

On the other hand, the Prana is fast.

#13

@CapeFear said:
You have yourself a bit of a conundrum. You like the speed, but you’ve gone beyond the stability profile that you enjoy, including directional stability in waves.
High rocker and high volume bows designed to prevent your bow from diving in steep waves don’t lend themselves to efficiency at higher speeds. Concave curvature in the ends of a sea kayak don’t lend themselves to higher racing speeds. They do lend themselves to directional stability in wind and waves. Look at the hull of your Epic, all convex curvature right to the ends, and then any NDK, with concave curvature towards the ends. Every kayak looks to achieve a balance, and every kayaker too. I point this stuff out because in general, Epics and NDK’s are at opposite ends of a spectrum. You just have to determine whether a hull starts running up a resistance wall before you hit your desired cadence and speed. It’s great that you have the Epic and a paddling partner to guage against, as you’re in a position where you can feel it for yourself relatively quickly.
The NDK Greenlander series keeps all convex curvature, and I think they maintain very good directional stability - at least the Greenlander I own. The Greenlanders are still billed as their faster kayaks, but they also have the Pulse and Cadence now to take that end of the spectrum up a notch. I would try to find something a half step back, given your goals. But you definitely want to get to where you’re really enjoying your time on the water.

Yes, I was thinking something similar. Basically, something a step back from the epic, but not insanely slow and that lets me keep up. I had even thought of keeping the epic but getting a step back boat for now and seeing if my feelings change with time in a different but slightly slower boat. There is actually someone selling an NDK greenlander used out here and it gave me pause but my husband says his Greenland (not ndk) is not very stable, and I assumed they would all be the same. I have also been considering going out to Maine Kayak to at least try the echo, as others have suggested. Just a brand new NDK is out of my price range (for now) so I don’t want to waste their time.

#14

Here is an updated kayak list of various kayaks. http://www.soundrowers.org/boat-classes/ The Echo mentioned earlier, is listed as FSK. Not listed, but should be in the ballpark of FSK, maybe an Impex Force 3. Fast sleek and a good fit, for your size. Marshall has one listed in the K Lite layup, in the $2600 range. He has paddled the Blackburn Challenge numerous times. I am sure he will chime in, shortly. The CD Prana also comes in an LV model.

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#15

Have you considered an Epic 16X? I’m 5’6 and 160 lbs and find it to be a pretty good size, quite efficient, extraordinarily stable when under way and will maintain a good cruising speed pretty readily and will handle any top end speed that my tiny motor and bad technique can challenge it with. The 16X might be the step back from an 18X that would do the trick for you.

I don’t paddle in challenging conditions, so I can’t comment in it’s performance in such conditions. It is very playful and responsive without the rudder deployed, which how I paddle it most of the time. It also handles quite nicely with a short ZRE bent shaft canoe paddle.

I’ve never paddled the 18X. I always assumed that it would be too much boat for me size wise and effort wise.

I also haven’t paddled any of the other boats discussed above.

I don’t race, so I can’t contribute on that subject.

Good luck in your search.

#16

If you are looking at the Fast Sea Kayak class of boats . The RockPool
Tarantella should be on your list for sure

http://www.rockpoolkayaks.com/tarantella.php

The US distributor. Sea Kayak Connecticut would be happy to talk to you.

https://www.seakayakct.com

I am a RockPool owner and really happy with my boat

#17

More on specific boats…
In the CD line a better fitting boat would be the Suka, if they are still around. Small paddlers.
If you don’t mind stiff you can probably get a Foster Silhouette around to try. Fast and closer to your size, though I don’t recall the exact numbers.
NDK Greenlander is too big for this paddler. I was 5’4" and 125 pounds and it was just more boat than my weight needed. Though many love this boat and they could be ordered with the purtiest pale green deck color I have ever seen.
Impex Force 3 would fit her, I have been in this boat. What I don’t know is whether it competes with some of these others for hull speed. My recall is that the bigger one, the Force 4, had more juice there.

Lots of people like the Rock Pool boats, also worth a look.

#18

As CapeFear pointed out the stable touring boats, while comparatively slow, can make bumpy conditions pretty boring. It took me awhile for the 18X not to feel squirrelly in chaotic conditions (like reflected waves), now I’m to the point that I have accidentally fallen asleep in it on long multi-day races. A similar progression happens when/if you make the switch to the faster surfskis.

Stability is relative. Paddle something even skinnier for awhile, if you have the time and drive to master it.
In my case, paddling an Olympic K1 (that feels like it will tip if you part your hair the wrong way) and an Epic V12 ski (much more stable than the K1, but less than an 18x), made the 18X feel very solid, by comparison.

I have both the Greenlander Pro and the 18X and the Epic is considerably faster on flat water, but I’d rather be in the Greenlander (or my slow Anas Acuta), in very rough conditions.

The 18x probably has too much volume/width for your weight and size. You might want to try the Pace 18, that is lower volume than some of the go-fast kayaks. Stellar 18R gen 2 is another choice, but it feels a bit more tender to me.

Greg

#19

Wow thank you so much everyone! This is such a supportive community and you all have gone above and beyond to help. Wish I had posted for advice prior to buying the Epic.

I realize my want to buy used and/or stay under a certain price range is not helping either. While the used market for sea kayaks out in New England is amazing, it may be that with my size and paddling needs/style I’m going to be stuck in a particular niche/narrow range of boats. Its looking like I will have to test out some of the boats that are newer or near impossible to find on the used market. Rockpools were ones I had looked at a lot and thought might be great, but cut out due to the fact you cannot find them used. Stellars do pop up from time to time. But looks like I would be better served trying some more expensive, new boats to see how I feel and then making a choice if that is where I need to go.

#20

I think even though you want to be in the fast sea kayak class, if your weight is compatible to your height, you need to be in a shorter boat.
My wife who is 5’-2" used to race a QCC-600. She never cared for the high front deck and the higher back one and finally convinced QCC to come up with a shorter narrower boat with lower decks then the 600 which they did. It is the QCC 10X . It fits her like a glove, and she goes faster in it then in the longer 600.

You might want to give some shorter kayaks with a fairly plumb bow a try

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