heck NO
I’m NOT FOR regulation!!! Are you kidding??
I just think it is smart to have in place a system for EDU that shows the world that we have it together and can regulate ourselves. To bring the CG, state officials or any other NON-PADDLER into the mix, IMO, is ridiculous.
In the wind IS the idea that our small little nitch of paddlers MIGHT need regulated and we just want to be ready.
man there’s a number of you’all that might benefit from a switch to de-caf.
steve
new thread!
and yes ANY issues that are worthy to log should be!
steev
exactly
Satisfaction will be about the same…
…as it is with new kayak owners! They’re all 10s!
It’s a loaded question. Spoken like a true member of the club, Keith. You have learned well. L
That will sound like more of a slam than it is, as I have nothing against anyone regarding certification or their involvement with it. I respect that many have achievements I would like to attain myself (with or without paper).
Still, that is not a pass. There ARE issues worth discussing, and not dodging with party line BS. The “Oh, you just don’t understand because you’re not one of us” line of reasoning is a bit weak.
Of course everyone who pays for lessons and gets a certificate will say it was a positive experience. I don’t doubt that it is. I just see the learning (however accomplished) as the important part, and certificates and levels have a way of taking on meanings beyond their true value (which is only relevant to that individual anyway).
The flip side to this “animosity” is the only ones who seem to be feeling it are instructors and assessed paddlers. Why so defensive? Good program, good job. Keep it up.
I still can’t help wondering why though, if it’s so positive, it still seems to be a hard sell?
I suspect it is the way it is structured in regards to time, locations, and cost. Makes it rather a luxury - and so a bit elitist (in logistics - not individual attitudes in most cases).
If available locally, on an ongoing basis, on alternate weekends (one morning or afternoon), and could be broken down so cost was spread out - I’d be on it. Our sport’s just not big enough to support that.
One last thought: I live to paddle - but I don’t paddle to live. Some instructors do. Changes things…
We’re close…
“At most, it might point toward some kind of certification process being required/strongly encouraged through paddleshops.”
It’s the word “required” that bothers me. It seems you picked up that implication from your earlier discussion with him also. To me, and I suppose to a couple others also, the idea of a requirement means there is some form of enforcement.
Absolutely correct
Never gave much of a thought about education until it appeared that I was going to have to take it too… or else.
It was the “or else” that pissed me off.
I thought the election was over?
Wow…such…misinterpretations…animosity
whew!!!
Hey…I have been fingerpicking my guitar for over 40 years…I don’t hold it against Flatpick because of his name. Hope those who don’t sing (nothing personal Sing) or like to singalong hold anything against me because of my name…or if so…who cares?
Flatpick continues to offer this listserve invaluable information…along with many other folks. I have and continue to learn an incredible amount about paddling…which is why I am here…and…at times am able to offer something back…isn’t that what it is all about here?
If I lived near Flatpick’s store, I am sure I would stop by…just to meet him. Whether I would or would not take his course or be interested in what he had to offer at his store is another issue. A long time ago I learned a some rather valuable lessons from a mentor/friend. He offered to me that I might consider ‘taking in what will be of benefit to me, and just leave the rest’…tends to work well for me.
Flatpick is a professional who has shared a great summary of what he has to offer himself…and as a model for others to use IF they relate with or have a need for the model. I did’t read that he was imposing this model on anyone…so…what is the big deal here?
I for one thank Flatpick for his contributions on this site…and look forward to more.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving everyone…
Bob
wow!
well put!
thanks! 
steve
According To My Sons
there SHOULD BE certification for singing. This way they can call the tune police on me, even as I shower.
sing
Nirvana!
all karma ceases. Nothing gets passed on.
sing
Self-regulation
It happened in the hang-gliding world. In the bad old days when people were killing themselves at a merry clip, the feds started making noises about legislating the whole sport out of exsistance. Pilots realized that resistance was futile, and that something had to change. Thus was born the USHGA, a voluntary, pilot-run organization which established standards for pilots and instructors; and the HGMA, which established testing and certification standards for gliders. Acceptance of these standards by the majority of the pilot population kept the feds away, and we still operate under the fairly loose regulations of FAR part 103. It could’ve been a lot worse.
Kayaking is very different – a vastly larger pool of participants and fewer fatalities to raise eyebrows in Washington. I don’t want regulation, or think we need it. But there are lessons to be learned from other industries.
BTW, my wife took the BCU 3-star training with me, enjoyed, it, but never tested. I did. We still get along just fine…
Flatpick vs. BCU
I do not see much difference in flatpick’s course and what is already being done by the BCU. I have chosen BCU classes over ACA because they test. I like knowing that I meet a standard because I get satisfaction from setting and meeting a goal. My wife has taken the classes but chooses not to test, she wants to learn the skills but does not care to put pressure on herself by testing. It works for us. I have nothing against learning by trial and error, but I don’t have enough free time as it is, so classes get me there quicker.
Steve
See, that’s exactly the attitude
that tends to tick people off. Some people learn best with a lot of structure. Some don’t. Some are motivated by having the opportunity to prove themselves and get a credential. Some aren’t. Some of that has to do with what different people choose to do on the water (surf vs. ponds), but a lot of it is individual preference, learning style, and motivation. There’s room enough for all those preferences.
What you’re saying is not “live and let live.” It’s closer to “my way is the right way, but I won’t actually MAKE you do it my way.” Gee, thanks, but don’t get too bent if people suspect you of a certain amount of elitist posturing.
try it , you might like it
is how I take his comments,there are more kinds of vegetables than green beans though,regarding learning/teaching it sure helps to follow in the footsteps of someone who’s been there before,and that might be as structured as one step before the other.
there is none
all we did was adopt the BCU standard of assessment to measure our progress. The BCU scheme lets you gain the skills, train and coach with whatever system you want but is pretty strict about the ‘test’ or assessment.
The ACA does have a great program for learning the skills but nothing in place, besides instructor cert, to measure the sucsess of the training.
Out here we just blended the two. Tried to dissolve the us vs. them attitude. there’s value in both.
steve
fwiw
except for a bit of mandatory BCU coach training and a 5-Star training I have NEVER TAKEN LESSONS.
All trial and error. LOTS of error and a very difficult learning curve, lots of dead ends, lots of frustrations, years and years to get me to where I am now.
NOT highly recommended, tho do-able.
steve
Well, yeah, maybe…
I think I have a little more experience than my 11 or 14 year old son. It’s not about tasting “green beans” but about an approach. I think in my 47 years, I have tried enough different approaches to learning and training in various physical skills to know what I prefer or don’t prefer.
Again, separate out the certification from the training. They can be related and separate.
As a fact, I still coach folks in other physical skill arenas, though mostly in small groups and on individual basis. The level and directions is adjusted for where they want to go in (at least as they expressed at that point and which can change over time). On a structured curriculum, some of the stuff can be considered very advance and in other cases very basic. Doesn’t matter as long as it is relevant to the training goal at that point. I see training as a living laboratory for the individual. Training can be hard and fun.
Sometimes, newbies introduced by someone will ask whether I give ratings. As soon, someone ask me to grant a rating for them, I tell them they should be training with someone else because I know their emphasis and some point of need do not fit in with me and my training style. I can and do give them a listing of folks whom I respect, teach in a more structured progression and see ratings as part of that structure.
BTW, some of the folks I have trained hold themselves quite well against “rated” folks, enough so that they are asked to coach at other folks’ schools.
This idea of certification, types of training approaches, etc., are not new to me. Quite contrary. Something I had wrestled with for over 30 years, having trained and trained others in structured and non structured (more like non “certified”) programs. This is something that I have already settled in my own thinking and approach not to say I prescribe it for any one else.
I have to admit the notion of being compared to a 7 year old child (even though it wasn’t necessarily directed at me) I do find a bit “patronizing.”
sing
Ahhhhhhhhhh…
so THAT is why you paddle solo so frequently out in the middle of the winter in the middle of the ice…you work part-time for the USCG cracking ice?
Hope to see you out there some day when I get to the point to be able to be out there and safe…my first drysuit arrives next week…hood too…will be testing out winter paddling for the first time…if we get a deep freeze on the CT River we’ll give you a call…
Sing on Sing!
Bob
good job on that Tempest…
got me a 170, it’s great!
What Sing said!
Good post.
I see the value of lessons, but I’ve also learned that formal training tends not to have a lot of value to me unless I’ve done enough trial and error ahead of time to come in with some pretty specific issues to address. I’m not good at learning anything until I kind of have a “hook” to hang it from–something specific in my own experience that I want to clarify or improve. Some are good at learn first, do later, but I’m not. I suppose it would also work to do a big part of your paddling “under instruction” until you developed a fairly high level of competence, but that just doesn’t appeal much. Again, YMMV.