Skipping grades
OK, so how much of this is mandatory from level to level?
You said you were a trial and error type and then went to 5 star.
I’d obviously be at a much lower level, but am not going to pay for very basic basics. Can people pop in at mid levels, pick and choose courses, etc? Or, is it a system where you cannot take course C without taking a & B first?
Since I’m not in you’re area, I’m asking BCU in general, not your specific applications.
Maybe I’m just looking for a middle path?
Need to at least keep a log
go on a trip with and insstructor and perhaps brush up on a skill or two that you do not have.
do you have a really good quart thermos? Required at some levels.
I’ll leave the rest for the experts.
patronizing?
Or just not funny? I can live with not funny and try again, but I wasn’t trying to be a prick. But try and succeed can be different things.
Sing, you keep talking about your approach, or having been there and done that, or a different way of thinking. You say that you have done enough physical sports with structured lessons and tests and it isn’t for you. Well fine leave it at that. Are you saying that other folks getting structured lessons and certifications is a waste of time? I don’t think you are?
This is the whole crux of this issue. Is this essentially an issue that the “non-conformists” are trying to control people’s ideas about lessons/certification, and not the BCU ACA folks? I’m certainly not posting: “the scourge of non-certification” at paddling.net/qajaqusa.org every day saying that people should certify or quit paddling, but there sure as south dakota seems to be a lot of people saying that no one should be certified.
thanks
now factor in Time Off work, Travel cost ect ect.. it can get pretty pricy. As greyack said can you just hop in where one feels they are and just pay for the assessment? or is this one of those deals that you are Guaranteed to fail unless you have been specifically taught what the instructor likes to see?
Thermos
Let me guess - for Tea Time? The “B” in BCU is for “British” isn’t it? L
Yes, I can see how that would be useful in S FL. Nothing like a steaming hot beverage in 100+ heat index! I have made sun tea (Earl Grey, of course) in clear sport bottles on my SOT. Does that count?
But seriously, a thermos? I’m sure there could be valid uses (for a heavy and usually slippery item with an easily lost cap), but if you’re serious, specifying gear is (again) a turn off. Specifying a need/use, offering examples, and allowing paddlers to select their own gear to accomplish it is better IMO.
Level four paddler means you are
capable of participating in a trip in level four waters and winds. That means you have things like hot water.
If one was to strand on as island in florida at night in winter with an injured friend going into hypothermia and your’d sell a finger for that thermos full of hot water and a packet of jello. Even if the helicopter would be there in an hour.
I carry a thermos of hot water almost everry trip unless everybody is a better paddler than me, and I always do in the winter in new england.
Okay…
"Or just not funny? I can live with not funny and try again, but I wasn't trying to be a prick. But try and succeed can be different things. "
Okay, if you're trying to be funny, I missed it. Guess that the comment about 7 year olds came too close on the heel of your statement about folks not getting certified as having a fear of failure (which I grant some are). Leads me to believe (probably erroneous) a certain perception on your part.
"Sing, you keep talking about your approach, or having been there and done that, or a different way of thinking. You say that you have done enough physical sports with structured lessons and tests and it isn't for you. Well fine leave it at that. Are you saying that other folks getting structured lessons and certifications is a waste of time? I don't think you are?"
Actually, I have said over and over I have no problems with structured programs and certifications. These serve a purpose and usefulness for folks. In fact, I initially defended Flatpick's post on this. Some question his intentions. Some then pointed out to some of his earlier posts which then raised some concerns for me. He denies any intention to bring about mandatory certifications. So, I'm back to taking him on his face value answer.
"This is the whole crux of this issue. Is this essentially an issue that the "non-conformists" are trying to control people's ideas about lessons/certification, and not the BCU ACA folks? I'm certainly not posting: "the scourge of non-certification" at paddling.net/qajaqusa.org every day saying that people should certify or quit paddling, but there sure as south dakota seems to be a lot of people saying that no one should be certified. "
Funny, you mention the Qaja threads related to the same issue. I honestly don't agree with the other extreme which states all certifications and high structured programs are bad. In deed, I suspect some of these folks setting up "guru" status for themselves as it were. I don't feel the need for a Greenland guru anymore than I feel the need for a BCU coach. I like training and training partners as it were. In the original "scourge" thread, you'll note that I answered early on that there are some valid reasons for certification. I continue to believe that. But what seems to keep popping up is that there is notion that the "certification" equals training. I say they are not. Training is training. You don't certification for that. Certification is for something else. Testing for that matter does have to be by an assessor. It can come from dealing with real experiences. But, the latter is a challenge for some, and they prefer the parameters (and safety) of being in an organized setting.
I absolutely can't stand "absolutes", especially if I feel it is being imposed or being attempted. The "rebel" in me kicks in. I also tend to speak honestly about how I perceive or receive stuff from those I have some respect for. So believe it, or not, I do have some respect for you. Otherwise I would simply ignore you. :)
sing
“Mandated” Thermos…
Oh…My … G…
sing
yep
but if push comes to shove the cert may be needed for insurance, commercial paddling and guiding. This is something that isn’t required as such, but may be in the future.
long as we get it rolling now (no pun intended) abnd establish a ‘system’ that works well, we will be ahead of the game.
I think the day that someone will need a cert to paddle certain waters will never happen. To rent a boat or take a commercial course, it’s likely to go there.
The insurance/ liability issues are HUGE.
steve
We Agreed On That…
I run an organization that does sports leagues, swim teams, camping and field trips, etc, as part of services for youth.
I am at the point, where the insurance I can find is costing an arm and a leg. Already, I have been forced to curtail some activities, e.g. no gymnastics, no sparring for martial arts, no swimming for kids under 6, etc. So, I perfectly understand where this is going and where it is coming from. But, we are talking about business needs and not individual needs.
Individually, I will not get certified. I am not in the business. If some one wants to legislate certification, I am probably more happy expending energy and money fighting such a mandate than spending the same to get certified. The fighter in me likes a good fight.
sing
I logically assumed hypothermia
as that would be the only reason - but it’s more fun to read your 4 star pontifications!
For sharing warmth, I prefer cute female paddlers and snuggling
Seriously though, it’s good of you to look out/prep for others (certified or not).
I have to wonder if using warm liquid is really effective beyond psychological comfort though. It assumes the victim is conscious - and that you can get enough volume into someone to matter without causing shock or other complications.
One pint of warm liquid (say 50-60 degrees above body temperature) divided over 150 pints of victim body mass may not do as much as you’d think.
my path
to Level 5 paddling (I have not done a 5* assessment) has been a 40 year trek full of everything from BSA Canoe merit badge @ age 10, Alumacraft canoes in class 3 in High School, 1980 Hollowform River Chasers (defines Old School) squirt boats in 1985 (WAAAY before planning hulls) extreme class 5, surfin’ 15’ swells at LaPush (video footage) to present day ‘sea’ kayaking. lots of slow moving learning, stumbling and such.
sure someone can plug in wherever they want provided they can walk the talk. The award syllabi are available (online) and it doesn’t take any formal training to do 2/3/4 star assessments and only 1 formal 5* training for 5. long as you know the stuff you are G2G.
The problems arise when you ‘self assess’ yourself for an upper level course and over rate your abilities. this happens often and can cause problems in group comradery, lesson plans and safety. I have had students who couldn’t execute a decent sideslip, rudder stroke, roll or brace who were out on an advanced trip. this stinks. these are BASIC skills.
and when they show up w/o a proper vaccum flask (thermos) I really hit the wall!!!
but seriously a decent kit inspection is part of any assessment. certain things are mandatory for a safe journey and an available cure for hypothermia is one of 'em. Plus i like tea and I ain’t even a little bit Brit.
Heck on most of our ‘sea’ kayak trips, helmets are required. Rocks are exceptionally hard here on the West coast.
steve
its an interesting discussion
which is why I keep coming back to it.
I think perhaps I neglected to parse your messages above concerning the subject of training/certification, and I hear where you are coming from and think that your views have alot of validity. I obviously recriprocate the sentiment of respect between us. Which is interesting because I feel that your approach to paddling while different in regards to this issue is probably one of the closest to my own. I can’t think of too many other people who are as interested in all aspects of paddling as you are without prejudice to: surfing/ww/sea kayaking.
I think maybe I initially misunderstood the issues surrounding the same posts on qajaqusa.org. If I’m not mistaken they were talking about coming up with a “club specific certification” separate from the ACA/BCu for traditional skills. Is this correct?
Truthfully…
When I see certain threads (by certain posters) posted, I don’t bother reading them any more. I put on the “ignore” mode.
sing
I think
the thing about the ‘traditional paddlers’ is they are dogmatic about being non-dogmatic.
to think that a cert could even begin to cover traditional Inuit technique is absurd.
Knowing you two for the past couple years here online has shown me two very different learning styles and these threads have really brought it out.
I hope to hell I can paddle with you both someday soon!!!
rock on
steve
Helps dissolve the jello!
the heat is insignificant.
I paddle with some diabetic padders so the protein based calorie content of the jello could well be significant.
Heck I would not even rate myself a three star paddler, considering one of the paddlers I’ve seen not pass that test. That’s part of my problems with certs in general cause I’d rate that person a four star.
Doc Watson
When I was in graduate school in Ann Arbor there is a venue there called “the Ark” I saw him play there sitting about 6 to 12 feet away four times. Best money I ever spent, a real national treasure and he seemed like a really decent guy too. My wife joked about all of the guitar players in the audience being transfixed on watching his fingers the whole night.
Be careful with diabetics
Be sure you really know what’s going on and they have told you what to do in case of an emergency.
Many diabetics carry a Glucagon emergency kit (Glucagon is the counter hormone to insulin). If so, they need to tell you and brief you on it’s use. Short of this, some will need a quick bit of sugar as a temporary measure to help stabilize their insulin level (will you know if it’s the right thing?).
Has nothing to do with protein (outside of normal dietary intake). Keep the tea and jello for parties.
(My daughter is type 1)
has plenty to do with protein
as opposed to simple carbohydrates. if you need to get 200 hot calories into a barely conscious person who is diabetic how are you gonna do it? Not to deal with their sugar but because they need the fuel?
It takes about 200 calories to warm up a sleeping bag or a human burrito in a survival situation. fuel to burn, lots os insulation under the incapacitated, lots of dry stuff on top and tuck over a waterproof wrap to complete burrito.
Unsweetened gelatin is safe. Sorry about that you vegetarians but God forgives necessity.
grateful to Steve + kayaking meanwhile
I’m a novice. I love to kayak, get high on the water, and it’s my life goal to kayak a lot. However, I’m not too much of a natural athlete, not real strong or in great shape at all, but I cannot stop thinking about kayaking, looking at paddling magazines, staring at all my route books and maps, dreaming day and night about the water.
I feel SO fortunate to live near Steve & Co, and AlderCreek, and the Shellbacks, and have this opportunity to gradually learn skills and get better at kayaking. After all, it can be dangerous, it IS water, and weird things happen. I’ve already almost drowned (Sandy River, ranger said it’s really safe and easy and kids are going down it in tubes – Ha!).
I’m poor financially and life throws unexpected twists so I haven’t been able to take as many classes/practice as I’d like. That hasn’t stopped me from going on lots of lakes and rivers; I have been kayaking a lot! Maybe stupid, putting myself and my friend at risk, but it’s so beautiful, so much fun, that I’ve decided it’s worthy literally dying for, I like it this much.
I’ve taken every opportunity for free coaching possible, and have taken the level I beginner class: it was fantastic!
I intend to paddle my way up Steve’s ladder even if it takes lifetimes and rearranging my entire life to do it. I LOVE KAYAKING.
Just really glad to have the structure available and so close, and yet it doesn’t keep me out of the water that I can’t afford it all right now.
Leska