Just curious if anyone out there has a Greenlander Pro that they have had the opportunity to use much in rough water.
I have had mine out in fairly rough conditions but not as rough as the conditions in which I have had my Explorer.
I plan to get out to the coast some more this winter with my Greenlander Pro and hope to get the chance to take it out in some good rough conditions (if the weather cooperates) but in the meantime I wanted to see what feedback other owners had.
The few times I have had mine out in rough water at the coast it did pretty well. I found the secondary to be quite good and found it to be lively and maneuverable.
My concerns that I have to test a bit more though is that the bow did seem to have a tendency to pearl a bit on steep waves (but I did not get the chance to take it out in any really steep waves). The times that it did it seemed to re-surface pretty well by leaning back.
It seemed to surf pretty well in ocean waves and respond to edging quite well. I did notice though that in bigger following seas it seemed to become a bit unpedictable surfing fast, but in its own chosen direction at times.
These are just my impressions from a few different times out so my sample size is small. I have had it out on very windy days on the bay and it does really well in these conditions, but these are much smaller waves then on the ocean.
I am curious how it would compare to the Explorer in really rough water. The Explorer is not quite as lively as the GP, nor as fast, but is very predictable.
Of course I will need to make my own assessment, but since I can’t get out to the coast for at least a few weeks I wanted to see what others’ expeiences were.
Bottom line is that I am debating over whether to use the GP or the Explorer as my single boat. Rough water performance is an important criterion but I have not yet had enough time out in really rough conditions with the GP to make an informed decision.
thanks
matt
They’re both capable…
…as are many other boats. It’s really more a matter of which one you prefer and feel most comfortable/confident in.
well now…
why don’t you just buy a tempest and be done with it?
steve
Mainly it is the pilot
Hi Matt,
the following picture is of Dutch paddler Nico Middlekoop in a Greenlander Pro Race at Penrhyn Mawr. This is the 19.5 foot version of the Greenlander Pro. It is not the boat I would have picked for the day, however, Nico makes it look easy to handle conditions that ranged from 2-5 feet and wind to F5-6. Fiona Whitehead used the same model on her circumnav of the British Isles. The standard GP would likely serve well as a one boat quiver if you like it. I prefer the Explorer, but that is mainly a sizing issue as the GP felt a bit sharp on my hips. Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Rob G
nico is…
a beast.
Tom Bergh could advise…
Matt
Contact Tom Bergh at MIKCO (Maine Island Kayak Company) as this was his primary boat though now he uses mostly an Explorer I believe.
He told me once that my love of hard chines hurt me in rough water…so what did I do? I bought an Anas Acuta!! lol
Scott
I think I read
you can’t use a Greenlander Pro in rough water
Zen Masters often speak in riddles
I’m curious what your love of hard chines supposedly had to do with hindering you in rough water. And what is meant by rough water? Big seas, confused headland messes, churned water in rock gardens, breaking junk?
I doubt the message was that hard chines are not suitable/contra-indicated for rough water. I suspect it was that the personality of the hard chine boat you were in or your manner of paddling it was hindering your ability to learn to deal/cope/enjoy “rough water”.
I think you need more than 1 boat
Matt, can you explian below further ?
“My concerns that I have to test a bit more though is that the bow did seem to have a tendency to pearl a bit on steep waves (but I did not get the chance to take it out in any really steep waves). The times that it did it seemed to re-surface pretty well by leaning back.”
Your definition of “pearl” + “steep” waves ?
“It seemed to surf pretty well in ocean waves and respond to edging quite well.”
Your definition of “ocean waves” ?
“I did notice though that in bigger following seas it seemed to become a bit unpedictable surfing fast, but in its own chosen direction at times.”
You definition of “bigger following seas” as compared to “ocean waves” and “steep” waves also your definition of " unpredictable" + “surfing fast”
What ever happened with the other boat ? What was the outcome with it ?
heh heh!
I’ll tell me wife
standard greenlander
I’ve found mine a bit of a bear to turn in the combination of big waves and high winds. But so far it just requires some planning or thought. Also, surfing downwind seems controllable but quartering following seas are what make me nervous. The boat seems to want to grip the water and take a set; sometimes I have to muscle it out of the set. Also had the same experience with pearling, but this was in 3’-4’ and closely spaced great lakes waves. And I’ve never come close to pitchpoling.
It sure is nice to have two boats. I like my Pintail in really rough water; the speed difference is minimal and it’s just more comfortable for me. Seems to slide around more and grip the water less, and tons of rocker make it a breeze to turn.
Next season my goal is to get the greenlander out in hairier conditions. I’m thinking of downsizing and getting rid of both if I can find a nice AA, Impex Force 3 or a deal on a Betsie Bay.
Definitions…
I will start out by telling exactly what my experience is with this boat.
I paddled it for about 6 months during the winter months primarily. I live on the Chesapeake Bay and most of my paddling was done on the bay.
My “rough” water experience with the boat includes lots of paddling on 20-30 knot wind days on the Chesapeake where wind waves are smaller than you would experience on the ocean.
I paddled it a couple of times this year on the ocean, but mostly paddled my Explorer and Avocet so I have only had it out on the ocean maybe 3 times.
I paddled it a couple of times at the Jersey shore surfing some 3-4 foot breaking waves and in some fun clapotis.
I also paddled while up in RI for the Rough Water Symposium. I stayed up there for a couple of extra days afterwards and paddled on my own. I took it out surfing in 3-4 foot waves, got it out in a small tide race, and did about a 18 mile paddle on the ocean with a 25-30 knot wind.
That’s the only experience I have with the boat in the ocean and surf.
- Your definition of “pearl” + “steep” waves: I consider pearling to be any time that the bow of the boat digs in significantly on the face of a wave that causes you to have to lean back to get the bow to re-surface in order to avoid doing an ender.
I consider steep waves those that would cause most paddlers to reasonably “fear” the possibility of pearling and doing an ender in the surf zone (some may enjoy this but it’s not my favorite thing to do).
- “It seemed to surf pretty well in ocean waves and respond to edging quite well.”
Your definition of “ocean waves” ? I am referring to waves in the surf zone at the coast as opposed to the wind waves we get there on the Chesapeake.
- You definition of “bigger following seas” as compared to “ocean waves” and “steep” waves also your definition of " unpredictable" + “surfing fast” Bigger following seas…Something bigger than about 3-4 feet. Unpredicatable…again this is based on just what I experienced in one paddle on a very wind day…but the boat would surf wind waves in a following sea with 25-30 knot seas pretty fast accelerating to about 9 or 10 knots at times. By unpredictable I am referring to its tendency to take off fast in a direction that was not perpendicular to the wave it was surfing. It seemed to take off at a slight angle left or right of the direction of travel and not straight down the face of the wave as with my Explorer.
- What ever happened with the other boat ? What was the outcome with it ?: Good question! Looks like the company is going to warranty the boat and give me a brand new one which is great…however, I took my current one out to the coast this weekend and made my final decision that it was not for me. I did not like the way the boat surfed and found it a bit squirelly in big beam seas (rough water this weekend). Combined with the fact that I don’t find the fit quite right I have decided I am going to sell it and either stick with my current Greenlander Pro or buy another Explorer which I have used in all kinds of conditions and know is a heck of a solid boat. The Greenlander Pro is a bit more lively though and may be more fun, but I have not had the opportunity to personally test its performance in rough water.
- What do I consider “rough water”? Of course that is relative. I currently live on the east coast so the conditions here are more benign than out on the west coast. I consider rough water the biggest, and roughest water that the Atlantic and any of its tide races (there are a few on the east coast) will produce on any day where the winds are 35 knots or below. I love to paddle in rough water and don’t want to feel limited in any way on a day where I would paddle. 35 knot winds is probably about the windiest I would choose to paddle.
I KNOW that I feel very comfortable in these conditions in the Explorer. I feel 100% confident that I can comfortably maneuver this boat in anything that I will encounter out here. I don’t have enough time in the Greenlander Pro yet to KNOW that I feel the same in it.
I have felt very comfortable in it in the conditions in which I have used it, but they have not been truly challenging conditions. The times I have had it in somewhat rougher condtiions it has been lively and fun, but seems to have potential to be perhaps a little squirrely in bigger water, and the pointy makes me question how resistant the boat will be to doing an ender in the surf zone on steeper waves.
Hope that helps to define these terms a bit better.
Matt
Matt
That was good, Matt…
…the Greenlander Pro is evil evil evil…
Get rid of evil here…heheheheheh
As to the earlier post about the hard chines issues I mentioned…I was told by a BCU professional and coach that I should stay away from them…but then, I am just too darned old and stubborn to listen!
I just bought an Anas Acuta - am picking up a heck of a deal on a like-new-BBK Aral in three days too…
Love 'dem hard chines…
Scott
Greenlander surfuing a wave face
I haven’t spent time in a Greenlander Pro in conditions at all - it is way too much volume for me. However, I suspect that the diff between this boat and the Explorer in surfing a wave is similar to the diff between my Explorer LV and my Vela, both of which I have had in surf. While lower volume and spiffier in many respects, the Vela has a single hard chine like the GP.
Because surfing is one a big “improvement opportunities” for the coming season, I have a lot of experience going other than straight down the face of a wave. I am real good at angles like 30 and 45 degrees and upside down in both boats.
Overall, I feel that the Explorer affords me more time to react to an issue than the Vela.
The Vela is in many ways probably the better of the two boats in terms of performance. She is a fast accelerator, has a tight bow that doesn’t wander and a stern that can be scooted out of the way very easily. However, in surf that hard chine has caught and turned me in the blink of an eye. The boat ain’t the issue - my edge control and speed of response is. That one hard chine in the Vela is simply less protective of idiots than the hull of the Explorer.
My summary is that the Explorer is a pretty friendly boat in surf and there is a reason that they tend to show up a lot. However, I’ll be a better paddler the day that I can handle the Vela as well as the Explorer in the surf.
question for you matt:
…am I mistaken, or does the pro have more rocker than the standard? Or are the hulls identical?
Demo more…
… and you might end up swaping both for something else entirely.
Both are fine kayaks, no doubt, but so many others are too. No telling which might be the best “one” for your needs.
In the mean time, either seems more than capable. Can’t really predict preference, so it seems to me only you can really answer your questions.
Standard has more rocker
Standard greenlander has a bit more rocker
but not by much. Pro has a bit less rocker &
2" more in lenght.
I think the real question is
how does the paddler feel about rough water?
Do you feel comfortable edging, bracing, leaning and rolling in textured conditions, wind, waves?
My suspicion would be is that the paddler needs some confidence first before the kayak comes into play. Spend some time out there in the wind and waves up to your limitations, have fun! The boat questions will answer themselves!
Ouch-off topic.
Got my gifted Buffett Holiday CD mailed back from B1 today. You likely missed my card inside the yellow mailing packet. (remember, I asked you for address?). Anyhow, no one stole your eBay account info, B1.
Please keep us posted about your Valley. Thanks.