guide comparing: skeg vs rudder?

I did some quick searching on PN here and didn’t find anything. if there is something, I guess I need to learn how to navigate the website better. anyhow, is there anything comparing the pro’s and con’s of the skeg and the rudder? I’d like to read more to understand them beter…thanks!



Bizmarck

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Surely you jest.

I didn’t look thru the forum,…
…I looked for an ‘article’. :stuck_out_tongue:

Skeg vs Rudder
John Dowd said that a rudder on a kayak is an accessory and a skeg on a kayak is an attempt to correct a design flaw. I’ve owned kayaks with rudders (Solstice GT, Necky Arluk III) and skegs,( Romany Explorer, Boreal Design Ellesmere) and tend to agree with Mr. Dowd. Besides, the skeg, unlike a rudder, takes up too much room in the stern hatch, even when not deployed. In the end, the skeg is there to correct for something gone amiss from the design of the kayak, while the rudder is there to help you on your way.

that sounds purist…
Dowd’s didn’t quite say it in that manner. he said they are accessories, and that they can be used to make corrections for a bad design, he did not state that that is their only reason for being added and used.



I am curious as to how they affect boating, not if you should or should not use them.



facts please, not opinion.

Purist?
Facts and opinions in this debate are hard to differentiate. I suppose we could take a kayak that has a skeg, remove it, slap a rudder on it and do a regression analysis on the difference in speed, tracking and other indicators of performance- which would, of course be opinion. The people I’ve known who design kayaks – and I’ve owned boats by three friends who have designed well known kayaks—will tell you that, in the end, it is their learned opinion, preferences for touring or playing, and how pretty they think the boat looks that rules the day.



You, on the other hand, could buy a couple of boats, find some coastal waterway and see what it is that you enjoy, rather than ask those here, whose opinion you don’t seem to want to seek, for the Cliff notes on a topic best learned through seat time in a kayak.



And am I a purist for or against the skeg? My Explorer and Solstice await your opinion.

you could always go
without either skeg or rudder…then you’ll do away with the loss of storage and the ‘windage/complications’ of a rudder.

I’ve got several boats that don’t have either and several with either…200 years from now they’ll still be debating the merits of or without…good luck with your decions.

I simply want to know…
…how they work and then the pro’s and con’s against using one over the other, so really, which of them turns out to be the most useful.



and Umnak, I say purist because of how you misquoted Dowd’s. well, more like a selection of information that gives the wrong impression for what he said and it wasn’t meant as an insult, tho I guess it could have come across as such. I apologize.



and I would be in boats, if I could be in boats…Kamloops has squat. everything is in Kelowna or the Lower Mainland, and Kelowna just had their last boat demo today, and I couldn’t get to it and being that I don’t drive, no way I can go 4hrs down a highway to Vancouver to see what the offerings are there, so I’m inquiring amongst you paddlers in the hopes I can come away with a ‘clue’.



I’m reading a lot of info, but I can’t alway place it. :frowning:

How They Work

– Last Updated: Aug-27-06 6:17 AM EST –

A skeg is used most always as a tracking device. It keeps you going straight when the wind is trying to turn you. On a windy day you CAN use a skeg to turn your boat. You can't do that on a calm day. The skeg works by anchoring or stabilizing the stern of your boat. Most skegs are adjustable so you can 'anchor' the rear end just as much as conditions require. Skegs are adjusted by hand.

A rudder is both a tracking device and a turning device. A rudder can turn your boat regardless of wind. The rudder guides the rear end of your boat to where you want it via cables worked with your feet/toes.


Some cons:

A rudder has more moving parts than a skeg. A rudder in the up position can catch more wind. The rudder can inhibit boat handling skills.

A skeg box can leak and they do take up hatch space. You have to stop paddling and adjust a skeg by hand. You have to maneuver the boat more with leans and sweeps with a skegged boat.


My opinion is that they are both safety devices. I would hate to get caught in very nasty weather without one or the other.

South Georgia
Two teams recently rounded South Georgia. One had high volume boats with a rudder. The other–low volume boats with a skeg. So the debate is far from over. Clearly both can do the job.



More Rudder Cons:


  1. Footpegs aren’t fixed solidly since they’re used to steer. Some move and mush. Others “bow”.


  2. Many rescues use the back deck as a staging platform. Rudders (sharp) get in the way.


  3. In the up position, rudders catch wind.



    More Rudder Pros:


  4. To the nonpaddler rudders look cool. Pick up more chicks cruising with a rudder! (Lame: “Wanta see my skeg; it’s a tracking device.”) :^)

When people ask…
I tell them that a ruddered boat is like driving an automatic and the skeg is like driving a stick shift.

A rudder is easier at first as the skeg boat requires more paddling skills but is way more fun in the long run.

Foot pegs…
“1. Footpegs aren’t fixed solidly since they’re used to steer. Some move and mush. Others “bow”.”



Why would anyone want footpegs when you can have a nice big board to push your feet against(regardless of your skeg/rudder/none position).



A solid foot brace that facilitates controlling a rudder has been used for ages - it’s called a tiller bar control: http://www.sissonkayaks.co.nz/kayakorder.htm



/Peter

Rudders are fine . …
Push the footpeg with your right foot - turn right, push with left - turn left, rudder straight - counteracts weathercocking. No big deal, on wide low rocker boats, works fine. Fine tight control of turning & tracking require a good feel for hull shape and rocker. In my experience, once a paddler learns how to do edged or leaned turns, the rudder skeg issue tends to fade away as paddlers tend to migrate to the boat that fits and feels best. Rudders and skegs tend to then only be used for tracking . . . and for that you need to understand what is happening to the back end of the boat in wind and waves, ie, “weathercocking”. No voodoo here, it really is about boat characteristics and the skill level of the paddler to exploit those characteristics. If a paddler doesn’t want to find an edge on that bad boy, turn the thing with a rudder . . .

Here Is A Link
There is all sorts of information on the web about how each device works. Here is a link to a discussion about skegs that I found informative when making the decision for myself, http://kayaklakemead.com/skeg.html



A boat will weathercock to some degree but the amount can be changed by several parameters. A perfectly balanced boat, same lateral resistance forward and aft of the center of balance, will tend to weather cock less. As the load changes aft the lateral resistance of the stern will increase and visa versa. The skeg will add more lateral resistance to the stern and has the same effect as adding load in the stern and reduces weathercocking.



A rudder will provide the same additional lateral resistance, though from further aft and can also turn providing directional control.



The need for one or the other of these devices is influenced by the boat design and what you want the boat to do. There are lots of discussions on this board about rudders and skegs. Many purists believe that a good design and proper paddling skills obviate the need for either. Some purists feel that way only about rudders. Others ignor the thoughts and use what works for them.



Happy Paddling,



Mark

Facts and opinions
After a certain amount of time in the seat, and paddling different boats, most part people will land on whether they prefer one or the other, or no device, or don’t give a darn which and will select whatever works best with the boat. But it can have nothing to do with the technical pros and cons.

I had a rudder on my first sea kayak and for my next boat(s) specifically ruled out boats that with rudders, but only a little for how it worked when paddling. I just found that the rudder and the cables were a giant pain when it came to pool sessions (had to cover the whole thing up) and rescue practice (had to constantly be careful of sharp things). The capper was when a guy walked by my boat on the pad in a pool session and found the one and only tiny soldered spot along the cable I had missed with the duct tape, generated much blood from his ankle.



I did have to have someone hang off the rear end of my boat and then climb up on a larger boat’s back deck with us rafted together to provide a secure enough platform in a real rescue situation last season. The guy was already tired, and would have been severely challenged to get around a dratted rudder assembly without at least ripping his drysuit. In the conditions we were in, that would have pushed him over the edge of hypothermia before we got everyone to land.



I also found that I didn’t like how it worked, even having the boat fitted with Smart Trac before it ever left the lot - fixed footpeg, work rudder with toe - I found it physically awkward and uncomfortable on my calves. But I’d have been willing to put up with that if it wasn’t such a bother the rest of the time and if I found occassion to use it more than once or twice in a season (didn’t).



I don’t find the small space lost to a skeg to be any issue at all in my present boats, in fact I rather appreciate the clean rear deck I get for stowing something like a spare paddle if I want to carry one half back and one half on front or a GP. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of people who do instruction or guiding appreciated the skeg for some of the above reasons.

And…
the ruddered Squall I used to own did not behave as well with the rudder up as my skegged Tempest 165 does when used with the skeg up. So much for design defects on skegged kayaks.



(Actually, the Squall did not behave as well, period, regardless of rudder or skeg status. It was very forgiving of sloppy paddler movement but that was its best trait.)

Situation to avoid
Rudder deployed in even medium-sized waves can leave you with no-resistance sliding footpegs in an unbalanced position, if the waves lift the stern up enough to get the rudder out of the water.



Had it happen once early on in my paddling days. The non-response to my attempted turning caught me by surprise, but fortunately I immediately realized what was happening and used several big sweepstrokes to avoid a complete broach and flip.



A skeg may be mounted more forward and be less prone to such lift-out, plus the footpegs are solid regardless of brand, plus a skegged paddler is already controlling direction by other means anyway.



Best to do a lot of paddling with both systems to see what your own pros and cons are. How much effort you are willing to put into being more “active” about directional control will tint your notion of pro and con.



I like the stick shift analogy.

Final score

– Last Updated: Aug-27-06 2:05 PM EST –

Rudder 5, Skeg 5. Read on http://www.kayakshops.com/waterwalker_articles/rudder_v_skeg.htm

In fact, you can have both as in Point65N. They have the best rudder design I've ever seen. I would buy their rudder and keep the boat as an accessory.

http://www.point65.com/Default.asp?page=butiken

I think you and others may be …

– Last Updated: Aug-27-06 2:49 PM EST –

Edit: - now I see it - on the composite boats. The poly boats list each as an option. Still seems kind of weird to me.


confusing the Point65N boats. There are available with a rudder or skeg option (as are many other boats). The website pictures boats with both installed - probably just for illustration purposes, but I don't believe it's normal to have both and I can't imagine why anyone would want such an arrangement, other than maybe on a demo boat.
~wetzool

Interesting analogy

– Last Updated: Aug-27-06 10:09 PM EST –

I've been thinking too it's partly a style thing. I'm a skeg and stick shift man myself.

Also, I like my minicel foot braces, ala bnystrom style, which would preclude a foot operated rudder.

Paul S.