Ask now about cold water clothing (OT)
Camvan, to convince Umnak further that you’re a P.net plant, ask now about clothing to protect you from cold water submersion in water temps around 50F. When people suggest a full dry suit, sound skeptical ;-).
They/we won’t leave you alone until you come around, and good for them/us. I finally got my mind right. Don’t hit me no more boss!
Paul S.
think it was
Island kayaks…not certain thoguh
The better your roll…
… the less you “need” it.
Your feel for the kayak is just that much better once you have a reliable roll - and concern over tipping that much less - both allowing you to avoid capsize much more effectively.
No real difference between deep braces and rolls - if somebody has one they should have the other as a bonus. If they don’t have both, whichever one they do have probably needs work.
Not disagreeing with you (at least I don’t think so), I just wouldn’t want anyone seeing your post as an excuse not to learn and continue to practice rolling. Pretty sure that’s not what you meant, but it could be read that way.
When in doubt, retract the skeg
I’ve spend some frustrating time of my own in finding that one out. But one thing that people sometimes forget, “in the heat of battle”, is skeg inhibits turning.
So, if the boat isn’t pointing at the direction one wishes to go, first thing to do is retract the skeg. That at least allows the paddler to turn the boat to point to where he/she wants to go. With the paddler paddling to balance out the wind effect, there’s more time to figure out where the wind is from and where one wants the kayak to go, and whether (or how much) skeg to deploy…
There’s nothing more alarming than when you have the wind in the back and the skeg fully deploy, heading to the WRONG direction FAST!
I am a plant!
…have you guys seen that new awesome shirt that is weather resistant and wicks sweat away? it comes in multiple colors, as a nice log across it and is available for only $24.95 for the short sleeve and $29.95 for the long sleeve. buy one now! LMAO!!! 
I want it in blue! I hope P.net will give me one to review 
Boat length is a good guide
How about this, which correlates perfectly with my too large boat collection.
6’ to 15’ length: no skeg or rudder
15’ to 18’ length: skeg
18’ or longer: rudder
(The categories purposely overlap where it’s a close call, depending on the style of boat.)
Something to that
A bit simple of course - but I look at it like that myself. Of course it’s waterline length, not overall length that matters.
The other thing to factor in is type/use - but even there the lengths are telling. Your ranges could pretty easily be broken down by type/use too:
6’ to 15’ waterline length (nothing): Recreational boats, intermediate mild water day boats, most SOTs, and some playboats.
15’ to 18’ waterline length (skeg): Sea kayaks
18’ or longer LWL (rudder): Racing hulls, surf skis, some longer touring kayaks and many tandem kayaks.
Again, some category overlap - and the use trumps the numbers - but I bet if you take the measurements of the boats paddled by the skeg proponents and the rudder proponents in this thread they will shuffle into these categories.
The exception will be the die hard nothing types in longer boats -but there are few commercial boats that really live up to that and that couldn’t benefit from something to balance the hull in wind. The ones that are OK have shorter waterlines - at the low end of the sea kayak range. Otherwise this is more the realm of low volume traditional craft - where this debate is pretty much nonexistent.
The predominant gray area/overlap will be in the longer waterline sea kayaks - like my (skegged) QCC700. Most owners favor rudders at the 700’s 17.55" LWL - which puts it at the upper end of the range with boats like the EPIC 18, CD Stratus and Extreme, SEDA Glider and such which are also ruddered. These are not coincidentally popular in sea kayak races (an overlap in itself).
Those with shorter kayaks that have rudders will no doubt have a differing view. But for me the rudder comes at a cost. It doesn’t pay back enough on shorter hulls, it pays back in spades on longer and/or faster hulls.
Skeg is similar, but it’s benefits basically come in as soon as there’s enough kayak in the wind for it to matter - and with paddlers are likely to be out in more open waters with wind (sea kayaks). There is a sweet spot of hull types the skeg is right for (and rudder might be overkill) - and past that it’s rudder time.
It’s settled then.
Somebody put the word out to the manufacturers.
up-a-creek
Cool, I was going to post the exact same question. 
I’m getting ready to order a new boat and am seriously considering getting it without either.
-creek
Skeg and rudders -sales devices
At one point the AnasAcuta came without a skeg. People were selling them as fast as they bought them because they couldn’t control the boat in following seas.
The current trend is to slightly over rocker boats since most sales are made at symoposiums in harbors and ponds. New paddlers with no skills want to be able to turn the boats with the sweep of a paddle. And if the seat feels OK, it’s sold.
Later to prevent weather cocking you could lower the skeg. Best of both worlds. Rudders are pretty much gone. Most manufacturers have gone to skegs. Rudders were also invented so a newbee could steer the kayak with no skills. Another sales device.
To design a kayak that wouldn’t need either, you would alienate quite a few buyers. Plus on upper level kayaks, they would feel they were’nt getting their money’s worth. It’s easy to design a highly rockered boat and correct it with a skeg.
Duh!!!
“Alienate buyers” meaning
produce a boat that doesn’t work as well for what they’re trying to do?
I’d like to have a boat that behaved decently (especially downwind) with no skeg or rudder. But it wouldn’t be my only boat.
bare boats?
So how does Al Anderson manage to design his boats, all of which are long, to work fine without a skeg or rudder? I used to have a necky elaho, a boat with a lot of rocker, and it definately needed something to help with crossings in strong cross winds. But my BBK valykyrie, which is longer, does fine without either skeg or rudder. I assume the difference comes from less rocker and lower back deck, so less chance of catching the wind. But if a designer designs a boat with less rocker, how does it manage to turn as well as the BBK boats? What’s the tradeoff that I’m missing here (or is it just much less volume for hauling gear?)
Care to share with us
what any of those skeg-free designs might be? Name names? Go out on a limb?
A few
Feathercraft Khatsalano, Valley Nordkapp, Eddyline Falcon16 and 18
Great photos!
– Last Updated: Aug-29-06 5:14 PM EST –
Wait a minute!
YOU’RE not Jay Babina!
Try to fool me.
What do you like in a following sea?
rudder strokes and leaning
keep me on track
Some boats better than others, no?
I’ve been playing with a Necky Elaho (had the opportunity to pick one up locally and figured why not) and have been surprised by how squirrelly it is downwind. I can control it, but it seems to be way more work than it ought to be. My tentative theory is that it needs a bit more in the stern quarters to give me something to lean against, but lacking comparisons, it’s hard to figure what I ought to be looking for next time.