I’ve Never Seen One
Hardly any boat has both rudder and skeg.
Please refrain from saying “I understand rudder is best” unless you add “for me” at the end. A manual transmission is best for some folks and an automatic is best for others.
I think if you’re using a boat to get from here to there quickly, a rudder might be for you.
If you think you’d like to learn braces and rolls and edging and play around with the boat a skeg is probably for you. A narrow boat with a skeg.
Hey Camvan
If you are a newbie looking for advice on weather to get a kayak with a rudder, or without one, or a kayak with a skeg or without one, from a fifteen year kayaker that has kayaks with and without rudders, my advice is to get your kayak with a rudder if the particular make and model is built to accept one.
You can learn all the proper strokes with the rudder up and not in use, but on those days with stong quartering winds at 15 to 20 knots, you will be glad you got it.
Cheers,
JackL
Lots Of Good Info Here
– Last Updated: Aug-28-06 7:25 AM EST –
I would add that I enjoy having a rudder when I am paddling in lots of current that is moving in a direction differant to my boat. Also, I have not noted any differance at all in rolling a boat with or without a rudder. If a rudder makes rolling too difficult I would take a look at your roll.
Bottom line, paddle the boat you are looking at with and without a rudder, with and without a skeg, and get it equipped for you. The rest of us will only be able to tell you what works for us.
Mark
Paddle offset
speaking of skegs
I was looking at Nick Schades wooden boats and he’s mounting the skeg about 2" off center to reduce jamming from rocks/gravel. He said it made all the difference and mentioned one commercial manufacturer who installs them that way. He also said it didn’t make a difference in function. Anyone else have experience with off-center skegs? Having to install a dangling string and need a friends assistance to unjam a skeg is a real drawback.
Shotgun?
– Last Updated: Aug-28-06 2:37 PM EST –
Sounds like it was a great trip. And yeah, this thread has gone where this one always goes.
As to the shotgun - if this is serious (I play a great straight in jokes) and you are really trying to pack a gun, wouldn't the 10 inch rounds give you more of a problem? Or anything long and skinny and rigid. If there is anything to object to in the NDK boats for packing, I'd call it that.
We don't do that level of tripping at all. But somewhere over a week in anything short of like the Kayak Sport real long boats, at which point you likely aren't thinking about their manuverability as much as tracking etc since you are probablyi with others, it seems time to start thinking about backpack level compactness. We would have to undergo clutter therapy to achieve that.
I forgot one thing I use the area behind the skeg for - the returning bags of stuff from Leave No Trace camping. Kinda nice to know there's a skeg box between that and the rest of my stuff, if if well packed.
When are those lessons?
There is really so much that you have been asking that is messy to answer online but very easily resolved when you are in a boat trying it out. When are those lessons?
when I have the…
…fundage and transportation. like I mentioned, there’s very little in the way of support around Kamloops here. there are some kayak activities at our olyimpic pool, but it’s bring your own boat, so it will have to be down on the coast. and I just realized a flaw in that desire…my brother wouldn’t be able to participate. he’s developed severe reactions to sensitivities he’s had, he’s deathly allergic to shellfish, just walking by the shellfood section in a grocery store can cause a reaction, going near the beach and seawater is off-limits currently.
perhaps I should ease up on my qustions and get a 'yak magazine or two and come back when I understand some mechanics. sigh
So if a rudder is like an automatic
and a skeg like a stickshift, is a boat without either a Flintstone mobile? Yabadabado!
It’s been a pleasure to read
a thread on a topic for which I’ve already completely made up my mind. Kind of like reading about issues in your own home town.
I rented boats boath ways and was lucky enough to get some wind during that time, and demoed lots of boats both ways too. Then I knew.
I will say there’s been some good info shared here. More thorough it seems than my memory of previous posts on the subject. I hadn’t seen that comparison sheet before related to Rudders 5, Skeg 5. Maybe too I have a little experience now from which to relate better to the info.
Camvan, it’s admirable to be thinking about these things. I think the only mistake you could make is to settle on one or the other without first trying both in some wind on several different boats. Enjoy the journey.
Paul S.
The Third Way
Or do what I did and get a boat WITHOUT. That way–no crutches–you’re on your own. That, and a copy of Nigel Foster’s DVD #3–“Directional Control” (yabadabadoo).
(Cam, you see what you unleashed when you asked this question? This is like the kayaking equivalent of The Bomb.)
WILMA…
Now he’s bordering on getting into the chines thing…
without either
I kind of like having a boat without either (a BBK Valkyrie), although sometimes I wish it did have one or the other.
More to the point, both rudders and skegs stick, which is a hassle. Skegs seem the worst about this–at least a friend can come up alongside you and unstick your rudder, but when skegs want to get stuck, they really get stuck. Of my skegged friends, 3 out of 4 have unreliable skegs that are often getting stuck (in a Romany Explorer, a QCC, and a Tempest). Of my ruddered friends, 1 out of 4 get stuck. That QCC with the constantly stuck skeg is a real danger without the skeg–it weathercocks in the slightest breeze, and my poor friend wastes a ton of energy trying to keep the boat in line.
The other downside for some paddlers about a skeg is the wind direction issue. With some kinds of quartering winds and rough seas, the skeg causes more problems than it fixes. The problem is that my friends can never seem to remember which wind direction means skeg should be up, not down, during crossings. Again, this may be a problem more with my friends’ memories than with skeg designs, but paddling with them has never made me want to get a skeg of my own.
Al Anderson would probably come cut off my head if I added one of those Epic or Onno rudders to my BBK, but sometimes I think about doing it just for the fun of it.
Bad memory?
"The problem is that my friends can never seem to remember which wind direction means skeg should be up, not down, during crossings. "
Geez, you got some “directional challenged” friends!!!
All they have to do is the put the skeg all the way down, if boat turns too much down wind, push it back half way, and trim it back and forth some more depending on whether the boat turns too much or too little down wind.
Or, they had a poorly loaded boat in the first place. Remember, a skeg help turn the boat by altering the trim, of a properly balanced boat. If the boat was poorly trim due to bad weight distribution in the first place. The skeg might not be able to help at all!
Yes, Shotgun
– Last Updated: Aug-28-06 2:06 PM EST –
Yes, a shotgun. It’s a Mossberg marine model with a folding stock, so it fits through the hatch opening. She carried it in the forward compartment of the Explorer. Admiralty Island has the largest concentration of Brown Bears in Alaska. Only had to fire it once and that was simply to attract the sow’s attention. Gosh, that will probably generate a whole new strand of opinion….
A few pictures can be seen on http://www.flickr.com/photos/umnak/
The Explorer forced us to become an ultralight kayaker – or within the realm of reason for ultralight kayaking. We use tarps and bivies instead of tents – not just for weight, also because condensation is such a problem in the rain forest – fire for our meal preparation instead of carrying fuel, and have supported the retirement plans of Outdoor Research’s dry bag producers by gradually moving into #1s and #2s for all of our gear. The same can be said for the bear resistant food bag manufacturer, Ursack. We use the pantry approach for food.
Now that we use our Current Design Boats for our longer trips I’m thinking about digging out some of my old gear and seeing what fits in the rear hatch.
And, yes, the space between the skeg box is a wonderful location for my used capaline.
Yes, Shotgun
Yes, a shotgun. It’s a Mossberg marine model with a folding stock, so it fits through the hatch opening. She carried it in the forward compartment of the Explorer. Admiralty Island has the largest concentration of Brown Bears in Alaska. Only had to fire it once and that was simply to attract the sow’s attention. Gosh, that will probably generate a whole new strand of opinion….
A few pictures can be seen on http://www.flickr.com/photos/umnak/
The Explorer forced us to become an ultralight kayaker – or within the realm of reason for ultralight kayaking. We use tarps and bivies instead of tents – not just for weight, also because condensation is such a problem in the rain forest – fire for our meal preparation instead of carrying fuel, and have supported the retirement plans of Outdoor Research’s dry bag producers by gradually moving into #1s and #2s for all of our gear. The same can be said for the bear resistant food bag manufacturer, Ursack. We use the pantry approach for food.
Now that we use our Current Design Boats for our longer trips I’m thinking about digging out some of my old gear and seeing what fits in the rear hatch.
And, yes, the space between the skeg box is a wonderful location for my used capaline.
very nice Unmak!
those are some sweet pictures 
I can only imagine how much fun you must have had!
I’m curious, when you’re loaded up and on a trip, how often do you find yourself rolling? I easily understand the need to know how to roll, should it happen, and it does happen, but how often?
I only plan on nice lake cruising and overnight camping on the bigger local lakes.
no, I am not excusing myself from the need to learn to roll, I will. I’m just wondering.
Are you a plant for Paddling.net?
– Last Updated: Aug-28-06 2:36 PM EST –
You wrote...1'm curious, when you're loaded up and on a trip, how often do you find yourself rolling? I easily understand the need to know how to roll, should it happen, and it does happen, but how often?
Gee, I'm wondering if you work for the website and are trying to generate debate.
I've been kayaking for 30 years and have never had to roll a boat without wanting to do so, at least not a sea kayak. My goal has always been to stay in my kayak and do so by bracing -- I've been out twice in that time unintentionally and in both instances near enough to the beach that it was prudent to exit and walk. The sea conditions that would force one to roll would still be present after the roll, so its best to try to work with the sea to avoid being in the sea. Besides, its cold in my waters. Bracing works well, learn it.
I'm about to board a plane for Western Alaska and will be off-line for a day. Hope this conversation wraps up by then.
Safe Flight
Or at least one that isn’t diverted. Thanks for the pics - easy to see how you can be challenged to pack light and have enough gear with wetness like that to deal with.
not a boat trim
Nah, it’s not a boat trim problem for these folks; it’s a matter of remembering about turning upwind. Sure, it’s easy enough to say–if you’re trying to turn upwind and you can’t, retract the skeg since the skeg’s job is to overcome weathercocking, so it will be what is preventing your turning into the upwind seas. But when push comes to shove, and someone is getting shoved onto the beach by onshore winds and is struggling to stop the broach, reasoning that out doesn’t always happen. Even the pretty good kayaker Paul Carryn has had this problem, so it’s not just about being an idiot. It’s an issue with skegs that many people aren’t aware of:
http://www.sissonkayaks.co.nz/caffyn.htm