I almost always use my skirt in the two boats I have skirts for. It keeps me dry. I get more drip in the lap getting used to the Greenland paddle, plus I like anything safety wise to be everytime habits.
@CA139
Gotta ask. Where are you paddling that you have never seen a spray skirt in close range in 15 years? Even inland here in NY, I am hardly the only person who likes to avoid water dripping into my lap from every stroke. Unless there are nothing but canoes that are not rigged for big water around you, like having a spray cover.
The few times I have ventured out without a spray skirt (in most cases because I forgot to bring it or brought the wrong one that did not fit the boat I was using) I have usually regretted it. For one thing, I use a Greenland paddle virtually all the time and that means at least a quart per hour of drippage into the cockpit without a skirt. I have twice been swamped by power boat wakes in shallow areas when I was skirtless (the tsunami effect), fortunately near shore, and taken on a enough water to soak my entire lower body and legs and necessitate stopping for a significant pump out. Also got caught on a downriver float trip in an unexpected steady hard downpour (no good place to pull out in the canyon we were in to wait it out) and having rain running off me and into the boat for two hours was not pleasant. Also paddle in cold water and cooler weather at times. So I would definitely not want a boat that would not support a skirt. It looks like that new Venture seat is two components so the back could be replaced with a backband. I have backband or low profile type seat backs in all of my kayaks.
You would also be hard-pressed (literally) to roll with such a high seat. So it would limit skill expansion considerably. “Barcaloungers” are for fishing and lily-dipping.
So stepping back away from the talk of specific kayaks and on to the basics of recreational versus touring. Some of which was covered and some of this it sounds like you’ve found from other sources, but best to put it out there…
Recreational kayaks are made for calm flat water. They are hard to flip over, but f you flip over, the vast majority can not be re-entered back in to in deep water. That means they need to be used in areas where you can swim to shore should you flip over. As the water cool down, keep in mind that the distance you can swim is inversely related to water temperature. There will be a time when you really should be wearing thermal protection, like a wet suit or dry suit.
Touring/sea kayaks (same thing) are made to be re-entered in deep water (they have sizeable enclosed hatches which provide flotation if you flip, where rec boats often have one or just rear ones), so are better for trips further away from shore. But getting back in isn’t something that most can do without some lessons or reading books/watching videos and then trying in a safe, protected area close to shore.
So the decision comes down to how close you will stay to shore and your chances on the larger water of seeing it calm/not flat water. If you keep to the river floats and protected areas on large lakes, rec should be fine. Venture further, touring would be better.
Given you are considering touring kayaks, what you may want to do is take a class, which will both teach you the basics of paddling efficiently (skills which will be useful no matter what kayak you go for) and how to get yourself back in to a touring kayak in deep water. Classes are usually called something like Introduction to Sea Kayaking and cost about $100-140 per person. The class should also give you info on types and sizes of touring kayaks.
This all said, the advice of buying used is generally good. A boat loses a of of value when you first buy it, but then doesn’t drop much as it ages. So you could buy a used boat and paddle it and if you find you don’t like it, sell it for basically what you bought it for. Basically a free demo.
And given you likely would still do some floating, if you went with touring, you’d probably want day touring (something in the 13-15 feet long range, but with the hatches and flotation of a full touring kayak).
@Celia said:
@CA139
Gotta ask. Where are you paddling that you have never seen a spray skirt in close range in 15 years? Even inland here in NY, I am hardly the only person who likes to avoid water dripping into my lap from every stroke. Unless there are nothing but canoes that are not rigged for big water around you, like having a spray cover.
Combination of Sakonnet River and inland/stillwater such as lakes and rivers in Coastal RI. I made a bail out of 1L carbonated beverage bottle by cutting off the bottom and tying it to the rigging with fishing line. Each of our boat cockpits is equipped with one kept behind the seat. I don’t use them much.
I don’t feel like my boat takes on much water with paddling either and I go with a fairly good intensity, it’s not like I am just lounging around. Most boats around here though are either sit on tops for fishing or the Wilderness Pungo or equivalent type that aren’t truly touring. Aside from the Stellar Dragonfly canoes inland we use various doubles from Wilderness or Stellar.
So no, never seen a skirt, never used one and never really felt the need. When you consider that I have to know the Eskimo roll I’d rather just bail every once in a while and call it a day.
@willowleaf said:
You would also be hard-pressed (literally) to roll with such a high seat. So it would limit skill expansion considerably. “Barcaloungers” are for fishing and lily-dipping.
What do you mean by rolling? Why would you want to roll your boat at all and risk tipping it?! I keep mine upright thank you and because of that been paddling 15 years and never once rolled over a kayak.
The seat I mentioned is not that high, but the 1/2" extra of padding makes any boat comfortable, and we find almost all boats make our legs fall asleep or give back or butt ache. FYI wife and my BMI’s are 21-23 range (depending on season), so it’s not like we’re slugs or have issues from being out of shape. This accessory allowed us to choose boats based on attributes we liked and ignore seat comfort which except for the Wildnerness Polaris (whose seats are made of same cushions & material) we could acquire based on other characteristics we wanted.
That said while my skills might be languishing to some, it doesn’t stop me from paddling as much as 12 miles a day either. Which is why I recommend the Tsunami because it allows enough performance that a reasonably fit person can go far and have at least some performance/speed versus the lilly dipping type boats while having the insurance against bad weather that can strike during a longer paddle. After 15 years of this I know I will never get into the “play” stage, and if OP is like me they will still love their Tsunamisin 2034. But if they keep growing and wish to upgrade or decide to quit the Tsunamis are so popular they can easily be sold off, consigned or traded in so that the experience cost them very little to nothing.
@Peter-CA said:
So stepping back away from the talk of specific kayaks and on to the basics of recreational versus touring. Some of which was covered and some of this it sounds like you’ve found from other sources, but best to put it out there…Recreational kayaks are made for calm flat water. They are hard to flip over, but f you flip over, the vast majority can not be re-entered back in to in deep water. That means they need to be used in areas where you can swim to shore should you flip over. As the water cool down, keep in mind that the distance you can swim is inversely related to water temperature. There will be a time when you really should be wearing thermal protection, like a wet suit or dry suit.
Touring/sea kayaks (same thing) are made to be re-entered in deep water (they have sizeable enclosed hatches which provide flotation if you flip, where rec boats often have one or just rear ones), so are better for trips further away from shore. But getting back in isn’t something that most can do without some lessons or reading books/watching videos and then trying in a safe, protected area close to shore.
So the decision comes down to how close you will stay to shore and your chances on the larger water of seeing it calm/not flat water. If you keep to the river floats and protected areas on large lakes, rec should be fine. Venture further, touring would be better.
Given you are considering touring kayaks, what you may want to do is take a class, which will both teach you the basics of paddling efficiently (skills which will be useful no matter what kayak you go for) and how to get yourself back in to a touring kayak in deep water. Classes are usually called something like Introduction to Sea Kayaking and cost about $100-140 per person. The class should also give you info on types and sizes of touring kayaks.
This all said, the advice of buying used is generally good. A boat loses a of of value when you first buy it, but then doesn’t drop much as it ages. So you could buy a used boat and paddle it and if you find you don’t like it, sell it for basically what you bought it for. Basically a free demo.
And given you likely would still do some floating, if you went with touring, you’d probably want day touring (something in the 13-15 feet long range, but with the hatches and flotation of a full touring kayak).
Excellent advice, +1
I consider my Pungo 140 a good touring boat for rivers, lakes, and and salt water bays. Relatively fast , comfortable, two bulkheads and plenty of room.
@string said:
I consider my Pungo 140 a good touring boat for rivers, lakes, and and salt water bays. Relatively fast , comfortable, two bulkheads and plenty of room.
I think the threshold would be reached at the fact that a boat would have flotation, and if it has flotation it has it both bow and stern. The Pungo 140 does with a bow and stern compartment but is less common, the Pungo 120 which is more commonly seen (and rented) does not.
@Rookie said:
@CA139 said:
Kayak comfort is meaningless in this modern age. For $100 you can buy an overseat made of airpro fibers which makes it not only the most comfortable material in the business but highly adjustable:
http://topkayaker.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1643Forget about a spray skirt with that seat.
Not necessarily so. I have a Necky Manitou 14 that has a similar seat back. My spray skirt works just fine. I refer to my nylon skirt, never tried the neoprene on it. It’s my river boat.
“What do you mean by rolling? Why would you want to roll your boat at all and risk tipping it?! I keep mine upright thank you and because of that been paddling 15 years and never once rolled over a kayak.”
I am guessing you know this answer… But the OPer is a newbie and their responses suggest that he might have more aggressive interests than his spouse, at least to start with. And has mentioned wanting to paddle in open water where the shoreline might be more than 100 feet away. The above portion of your post could be distracting.
By rolling I mean being able to come up from a capsize without having to exit the boat. If there is another meaning to rolling I don’t know what that would be. I call a capsize just that.
I and a lot of people who ID as sea kayakers regularly paddle in areas where the only effective and fully safe solution to a bad surprise is to roll up. If it is bad enough to have been caught out like that to start with, odds are a paddle float rescue leaves you in the water too long or is questionable. The stretches I have to cover to get to a neat island for lunch in Maine put me a half a mile or more off the nearest shore.
I know there are not networks of offshore islands in profusion off the RI coast like there are in Maine, but there is a strong community of sea kayakers out of that area. In earlier times I have done surf training just up from Point Judith, it seems someone manages to get lost every other year by taking the area around Beavertail too casually and RI is within range of a launch for an aggressive paddle to Fisher’s Island.
So I have to assume that you never interact with these folks. They are there.
All that said, since I am paddling solo these days I take great pains in terms of conditions etc to avoid needing to roll. I have done so successfully for a lot of years and, in casual paddles, only ever needed to roll a couple of times. Both times because it was hot so I was messing around with braces to cool off and blew one. But I am not comfortable heading out to an island without having at least my right side in working order.
Of course I have a huge amount of capsizes in training, because that is where you tend to take some risks to stretch your skills. But that is normal.
@Celia said:
Ah, I get it. No, I don’t roll, I can just get back in, more or less but the biggest onus is preventing that first roll and it’s paid off, I paddle so conservatively (and own such stable boats) I’ve never actually gone in the drink, not even once. Not to say I couldn’t be more aggressive or take more risks, I just don’t like to.
I haven’t really been part of much of a community which is why this forum is attractive. I’ve just enjoyed going a ways in different places for a long time. Exercise plus relaxation plus family time is a big win for me. When you have kids you need to mix different things.
From their forum and posts I think the RI Sea Kayaking ventures mostly involve South County and the other side of the bay as well. I’m totally out of the loop and I don’t have the time to be in that loop. South County and places like Jamestown are far from me, very far in terms of transit time. Like ~1 hour to reach by car and 1 hour back. That eats a lot into paddle time.
Strong community of sea kayakers in Rhode Island… RICKA http://www.ricka.org/
excellent group for instruction. I used to paddle with them when I started out. And lived in CT paddling of all things a Keowee and yes it did have a spray skirt. Helped with warmth but imploded if water dumped on it
A friend calls his Keowee a plastic Kruger.
My experience is that kayaking is much more enjoyable when you don’t have to be concerned with contingencies such as whether, or not your boat is fast enough to get you back against tides and other currents, the size of waves and other turbulence and wind. I still encounter conditions that are daunting from time to time, but I know the boat will handle anything and all I have to do is keep doing my part.
Having confidence in your roll goes a long ways, but maybe even better is knowing that you really don’t have to roll, or depart from the cockpit. There are boats that will right themselves with just a little help, if you just stay seated and have a proper pfd. Bracing up is quick and easy if you happen to get knocked over, but the layback is super and requires no other effort in some boats. The CD Sirocco is one of those boats. I have had the occasion to do this without a paddle and no skirt. One time I didn’t even get my head wet. The boat will flip upright so fast that you would think someone was helping. Without the skirt, a little water gets in the boat, but it still comes up instantly.
None of that is to say that the Sirocco, or any other well designed sea kayak is likely to dump you–the opposite is more likely true; the good boats will handle the rough stuff and keep you upright and dry.
Sprayskirts are like bike helmets, car seatbelts and flood insurance: you don’t “need” them until you suddenly do.
@kayamedic said:
Strong community of sea kayakers in Rhode Island… RICKA http://www.ricka.org/excellent group for instruction. I used to paddle with them when I started out. And lived in CT paddling of all things a Keowee and yes it did have a spray skirt. Helped with warmth but imploded if water dumped on it
I know about this group but don’t live near most of their activities and I don’t have the time. I work an odd schedule anyway and schedule doesn’t overlap. For the most part paddling to our family is a combination of excercise, stress relief and family time. Not to say I wouldn’t want to socialize, and I have paddled with various people through the ages that weren’t family, but generally speaking there is no room in my life for a group like that. It’s not a negative thing about RICKA, just about fitting it in.
Plus they’re mostly based in South County which is another part of the state not close or easily accessible to me, especially with the increase in traffic over the last few years.
@willowleaf said:
Sprayskirts are like bike helmets, car seatbelts and flood insurance: you don’t “need” them until you suddenly do.
I never thought of that way but I disagree. If you don’t know how to roll then you are likely to drown stuck upside down in your kayak. Given the thought of being upside down in water, never mind cold water, never mind having it get up my nose or down my throat with no end in sight and only so much breath to blow it out and hopefully last long enough to rip that stupid skirt off and swim to the surface. Nope. I know I could never train myself to roll as the situation it invokes is so uncomfortable ABSOLUTE PANIC is a mathematical certainty.
I’d just rather wear a dry suit and swim to shore and not push it weather or conditions wise. Been paddling 15 years, never fell in, not even once. That’s why I don’t push it but it doesn’t seem to limit my skills.
I have only seen one person stuck upside down in his kayak when he capsized. He had a prosthetic leg that jammed and frankly should have practiced wet exits with helpers in a safe environment before going on a trip in sheltered salt waters with us. He said he would be fine and we believed him and an hour later he went over and was not fine. Got him out but he was hypothermic. We were able to keep his head out so he could breathe
Normally if you capsize and cannot roll you fall out. You will not drown but its a common fallacy among rec kayakers that you will. The hardest thing is to stay in the kayak! You are not upside down for more than a nano second.
I strongly suggest that with friends next summer you capsize. It will make you a more confident paddler.
@CA139 said:
@willowleaf said:
Sprayskirts are like bike helmets, car seatbelts and flood insurance: you don’t “need” them until you suddenly do.I never thought of that way but I disagree. If you don’t know how to roll then you are likely to drown stuck upside down in your kayak. Given the thought of being upside down in water, never mind cold water, never mind having it get up my nose or down my throat with no end in sight and only so much breath to blow it out and hopefully last long enough to rip that stupid skirt off and swim to the surface. Nope. I know I could never train myself to roll as the situation it invokes is so uncomfortable ABSOLUTE PANIC is a mathematical certainty.
Do you wear a PFD while paddling? You said you never use a spray skirt and have never seen one used by other paddlers, yet you posted this in a different thread:
Didn’t use a compass on my Friday paddle but the water on the way got so rough especially in a bottleneck for current and wind that we came very close to having to abort. Ultimately we made it but I figured this could be a problem. The course had most of the return being with the current and wind on the way back except for the end… No fog, nothing about compass, but boy can weather be unpredictable! Always good to have a plan B
Seems like practicing capsizing would be a good plan B.
@Rookie said:
@CA139 said:
@willowleaf said:
Sprayskirts are like bike helmets, car seatbelts and flood insurance: you don’t “need” them until you suddenly do.I never thought of that way but I disagree. If you don’t know how to roll then you are likely to drown stuck upside down in your kayak. Given the thought of being upside down in water, never mind cold water, never mind having it get up my nose or down my throat with no end in sight and only so much breath to blow it out and hopefully last long enough to rip that stupid skirt off and swim to the surface. Nope. I know I could never train myself to roll as the situation it invokes is so uncomfortable ABSOLUTE PANIC is a mathematical certainty.
Do you wear a PFD while paddling? You said you never use a spray skirt and have never seen one used by other paddlers, yet you posted this in a different thread:
Didn’t use a compass on my Friday paddle but the water on the way got so rough especially in a bottleneck for current and wind that we came very close to having to abort. Ultimately we made it but I figured this could be a problem. The course had most of the return being with the current and wind on the way back except for the end… No fog, nothing about compass, but boy can weather be unpredictable! Always good to have a plan B
Seems like practicing capsizing would be a good plan B.
That’s what the dry suit is for!