Yes. I have always supported it and a couple of times have been able to write a letter advocating same, when such a measure was before a state legislature.
The second part of your post is frankly foolish. PFD requirements are in keeping with a couple of decades of recommendations from the Coast Guard and a few boating organizations, and are merely an extension of decades old laws that do require PFD’s for minors and in the winter.
The likelihood that anybody would post a law against paddling alone, let alone a fine for it, is never would happen hyperbole.
You have up to now been more reasonable than this.
I don’t think it is that unreasonable. As I pointed out in my OP and repeated in other posts, those USCG and other boating organizations’ recommendations include “don’t boat alone” right along with “wear your PFD”. So if you’re saying PFD laws would just be “in keeping” with those recommendations it isn’t unreasonable that “in keeping” with those recommendations there’d be a law to not boat alone.
That said, in addition to my aversion of “there outta be a law” we seem to love in this country, I look to a previous post of yours for another objection. You mentioned enforcement, and the difficulty if not the impossibility of enforcement. Why have an unenforceable law? Not to mention, why would we want to create more possible confrontations between law enforcement and citizens?
There is a significant difference between enforcement being difficult across all situations and it being impossible. I have been stopped by the Coast Guard in coastal waters and looked over as have others here. It is rare but I appreciate it because it means that they might also catch people who are being foolish.
Laws also recommend correct behavior. Apparently you find this hard to understand. I don’t.
Up to now there has been some wiggle room. But if you are going to insist on chasing a ridiculous concept down a rabbit hole I am not going to continue to follow this.
I am more reasonable than this and if you read the majority of the post I made to this thread you would see my position.
I may be one of the few that saw @davbart position on this and basically a PFD is to keep your head out of the water and to prevent drowning, paddling alone or doing any dangerous activity alone is a more complex situation. It might have nothing to do with drowning it might be a broken leg or a eye injury or a heart attack or equipment failure or any of a million things that could leave you stranded.
His point is canoeing in 2’ of water in a very remote area you may have a higher risk factor being alone than not having a PFD on. The reason in general safety discussions they are often mentioned together.
Now if I wanted to play Devils Advocate I would say davbart and @eckilson are against paddling safety and PFD and paddling in groups because they see no need for a law to make people do something and you are in favor of some safety measures such as PFD but reject that there is safety in numbers as you would like a law for one and not for the other. Of course that is preposterous because I also think we don’t need laws in a free country to make us understand what is common sense. I put a seatbelt on when I drive and the fact that there is a law saying I have to is ridicules just like there is a warning on a pack of cigarettes that they are bad for your health.
In short many things can improve our safety when paddling having a cell phone or two way radio maybe outweighs every safety device we can think of when it comes to saving life. I remember when I was 16 I came upon a car crash and had to call for help. It was in the days before 911 and cell phones and I franticly went up the road banging on doors and it took a good 15 minutes before I ever got thru. Now you can call and do first aid at the same time and first responders are on the way in a minute.
I don’t think we need a law that that says everyone needs to have a cell phone when paddling as well, but it can’t hurt.
GPS is another great safety feature of phones it will pinpoint a person in trouble within a couple feet.
I carry an assisted reentry device I have been working on and it requires another boat to help. So there is one reason for me traveling on the water with a partner could be a huge safety plus.
I think sometimes it is hard for people to hear contrary ideas particularly contrary to long held beliefs. Part of the reason, I started this thread was to challenge others’ beliefs, but also my own.
To quote John Stuart Mill, “He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons of the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground preferring either opinion…”
This is so true. Critical thinking requires one to put themselves into a position of viewing all sides of any issue. There is a wide belief that there is one truth to any issue and that is not always true when the issues become complex.
I’m retired now but had a lifetime of problem solving. I can’t count how many times I was certain of a truth or a solution to a problem, but as part of my process forced myself to take all viewpoints of a problem and in the end my selected solution was 180 degrees from what I first felt to be truth.
It is hard to do and looking at the overall divide in our country is a good example how our vantage point forms our perspective.
When I started in industry close to 50 years ago I took company sponsored classes for things like critical thinking and creative thinking by the time I was ready to retire they were sending me to classes on sensitivity training. In the beginning I was taught to view a problem from all points of view at the end I was being taught all problems need to be viewed form a select point of view.
Dave, total agreement. NC is a great place. Most of my travel is in a beat up 14.5 touring boat on the Upper Chesapeake and the Jame River. I think I already pointed out that I just joined the forum. My purpose was to get info about a faster boat. During the last three weeks, I read as many posts as I could find. I was comfortable with my paddle and paddle style, because I believed I could get as much speed out of the boat as was possible. Instead, I found so much info on the paddle threads that I’m focusing my attention on paddles. One member critiqued the paddle I love and trashed it. Ironically. The things he didn’t like were the points that I favored. When I looked back over his post, I noticed he didn’t like how it performed in high waves. Hot dang! I have the same problem, so I went back to find what he prefers for high waves. I now plan to keep the boat because I’m intimately familiar with the characteristics and the performance parameters. I have a head start on comparing the paddles.
When I say “own it”, that doesn’t mean its a mistake. “I” mean that it’s my right to make a decision and “I” accept the results if it doesn’t go thevway I planned. If someone warns we that my boat can’t possibly go faster, and I think it will, then I say, OK, you were right andvI was wrong. What the heck. I has fun trying. That’s why we’re all here. We get to pick and choose the advice. Looking forward to interacting with you and everybody else. It’s been a great experience. The longedt and greatest thread is the picture posts. That’s what this is about.
I saw that thread, and didn’t respond because it has been years since I paddled a kayak. I grew up canoeing, so despite years of trying, I never could get as comfortable in a kayak. I will say this about paddle choice, and I think it applies across canoes and kayaks, I’d rather paddle a poor boat than paddle with a poor paddle.
In theoretical terms yes, but in practical terms not so much. Not to mention, how willing are you to enforce said law? Specifically, do we really want the application of government force to ensure people are wearing a PFD?
False Equivalency has been previously mentioned. Comparing seat belt laws and PFD laws is a perfect example of this logical fallacy. The number of fatalities from not wearing a seatbelt and not wearing a PFD aren’t comparable. As previously posted a total of 109 paddlers not wearing PFDs drowned in 2020.
I have before me my first canoeing guide. Red Cross, 1956 copyright, third printing 1965. Its 436 pages long. There are 411 black and white illustrations and not a single one pictures a paddler in a PFD. Not one.
There is one paragraph in the entire book about PFDs. It begins, “If your swimming ability and water safety knowledge are only minimum, it is wise to take along a lifejacket for each person. These may be carefully tied in the canoe so that they will be readily accessible for wearing whenever turbulent water conditions develop.”
And this is from the Red Cross.
What a difference fifty years has made.
PS: For the better.
The guy in the fast 120 pungo broke every rule in the book, from leaving his boat in the sun, to open hatch and no vest. After talking to him, I grew to instantly like him. I pointed out the law about vests, but I’m not the water police. I told him my stories. I believe law requires to have a vest on the craft. My responsibility is done. The more I care for you the harder I try. In the end. It’s a labor of love. Not meaning to be mushy. My new friend can do what he decides to do. Until he goes out with me. When I came across him, during the paddle, I stuck by him and would help him, but he didn’t go out with me or use my boat, so he can do as a free bird chooses. I would be devastated to here something bad happened to a member, because we’re connected by interest. I was concerned for the recent tornado warning.
My last thought on helmets, vests, safe conditions, skirts, learning self rescue or rolls, suitability of boats or other safety issues is that I have no authority or responsibility for enforcing compliance - my only “liability” is to provide truthful, accurate information to advise, but I have no right to demand your consent.
It should be noted that some members are paid certified instructors. Profesional standards, liability and personal integrity requires an unwavering position. I notice that some instructor have not weighed in, mabe because being misunderstood has serious consequences for them.
If I say, I’m right and you’re wrong", that is nothing more than an opinion. Arguments should be about points of law, because it can be settled by consulting a statute. Attention is invited to posts on: Lights on a kayak, Communicating with vessels confined to a channel or having limited maneuverability, or how much of your boat overhangs the front and rear of a vehicle. Oddly. There is no law that I’m aware of that directs us how to secure the boat to a vehicle. Damage resulting is adjudicated in civil court. I hate to sound so stiff but I’ll own that. If you think I’m not compassionate. I own that. I can still respect you. Even I think you’re wrong. I want to get back to business on kayaks and paddles. I got to look closer at several videos on paddles and technique, edging boats. Even though it applies to WW, making a Greenland Paddle that some of you have convinced me that I must have, and a bunch of paddle collections. You guys have been working hard and most of what I found interesting or relevant is the nuggets between the line. Thanks to everybody. Keep sending picture.
Two things, first you said the your “liability” is to provide truthful, accurate information, but where is it? I’ve heard anecdotes of this event or the other or vague references to the “unexpected”, but not once have I seen objective information (statistics) other than what I posted. Additionally, even the anecdotes didn’t address the specific situation in which I said I don’t wear a PFD, nor did anyone provide an unexpected event that was likely in the situation I described.
Secondly, based on your last paragraph can I conclude that you think I’m wrong, but it’s just your opinion like any other opinion?
