Years of charts and no video,?
No video.
I can’t get people to post logs or GPS.
I have to apologize for misunderstanding your comment. That actually isn’t new information about lactic acid, is clarification of misconceptions about the role lactic acid plays that contributes to burning muscles. The lactic acid combines with hydrogen and other substances to acidify the blood, but the real problem is the buildup of CO2. I don’t know if I’m explaining this right, but an EMT said the CO2 interferes with the exchange of oxygen. (I believe he said CO, Carbon Monoxide, is worse, because the blood cell latches on more readily to the single Oxygen molecule - a person with the right background could explain that better). When you are oxygen deprived, performance drops. All it takes is increasing your avg speed by .5 mph for 30 seconds and you see those performance drops that I highlighted in red. When I recovered, i pushed again and the same thing happens.
Craig shared his heart rate charts. You see the same thing where heart rate increases to 145 bpm and performace drops, and you can measure the impact the interval has on speed. If you look at the heart rate plateau and speed, you’ll see the best output for the lowest heart rate. If he can drop his heart rate by 10 bpm he might lose .1 or .2 mph in speed, or drop another 5 bpm and drop .3 or .4 mph in speed. His decision is whether he is paddling a 3 mile sprint or a 10 mile. The secret, and I probably shouldn’t reveal it, but his 3 mile race at 5.9 mph is his niche. He goes full anerobic for 30 minutes and depletes his muscle glycogen. Beyond that, for example, a 5 mile race and you’ll see speed degrade, probably to 5.2 to 5.5 mph avg. Craig can tell you what speed he will hit before he starts the race, because he understands his physiology. It isn’t the speeds he achieves that impresses me, it’s the knowledge has of his physiology.
Conversely, I paddle slow for the first 2 miles by about .2 mph under my target. I know my output and how it will handle conditions within the first 1/4 mile. I push a pace and try to maintain it until it drops off and stabilizes. Then I push less hard and watch it drop and stabilize. If you study my charts, you can see that test spike and drop. From then on, I set my target average. Stay below that by a few tenths. Then increase output once my metabolism kicks into anerobic. I’ll remain mildly anerobic heading into conditions, then I recover by using a wind, wave or current assist, but I make it a point to not push, because that time is used for recovery. I know if I’ve hit the right balance, depending on whether my speed avg spikes or drops on the last leg. That’s where I sprint for the last 2 miles, with the target being over 5 mph for 30 minutes. If I remain above avg, it tells me I minimized the use of glycogen stored in muscles. If I bonk, if I limp in, it’s because I used that stored energy during the trip. The difference between using it at the end and during the trip is that you need those muscled to maintain isometric tension to hold your paddler box. If younuse it up, your skeletal system has no support. I can limp in at the end, even if I’m a mile, and I have, at two strokes, then rest for four.
Aerobic output strengthens heart and respirstory. Anerobic improves the oxygen exchange process and activates more muscles that are in atrophy. Craig does both.
If you manage your output properly, you can keep the same avg speed of 4.8 miles over 8 miles or 22 miles. When I went 38.75 miles, the speed avg dropped to 4.65 mph. The speed isn’t my point, the energy management is. On myb38 mile trip, zi bonked, mostly from dehydration, but also because of an up channel run of 2 miles into a 3 mph combined river outflow and falling tide. My speed perpendicular to the current was 5.2 mph, and it dropped to 3.6 mph and I went mildly anaerobic (abiut 45 minutes) which I later realized depleted my energy reserves.
Sensors in the body trigger hormones to increase heart rate to open blood vessels, and increase breathing. If I mentioned lactic acid, that is the bum rap lactic acid gets. Your article exposes the misconceptions about lactic acid being the direct cause of burning muscles. It plays a role in that lactic acid reacts with hydrogen and other substsnces. I believe, but the issue is the buildup up CO2 and acidification of the blood. Anerobic effort improves the ability of the muscles to use oxygen and store energy, but the supply is limited. That’s why my last 30 minutes is pure anerobic. In bicycling, you do intervals. I would push to burn, then spin to clear out. Most people have no clue about gears on a bike. Zi rarely stayed in the same gear for more than 30 to 90 seconds, but rather shifted up and down to maintain the edge of aerobic. That balance can be managed with the aid of a heart rate monitor, a speedometer if you know what your speed should be for the terrain, or by simply staying on the edge of being able to carry on a conversation or gasping. Monitor that by singing or carrying on a one sided conversation.
Use whatever paddle or techinque that suits your style. However, speed is a lot more than how you can paddle. Over a 100 miles distance, marching soldier can outdistance horse mounted troop. You’ll kill the horse when pushed, while you just piss off the infantry soldier, and they actually get stronger. Cadence is actually a good way to monitor aerobic state. Anyway, I’m sure a serious racer can correct any inaccuracies on my part. Good article.
So that means what?
Your posting tons of stuff but a video says it all to show people.
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Some day I intend to get my nephew to video using his drone, butbee haven’t been able to coordinate to paddle together in the past 2 yrs. That will happen when it happens. I haven’t been out for over a month. Before I invest time in a video, i would rather spend more time kayaking. My message is more about energy management andv that can’t be videoed. I’m not trying to convert anyone to low angle paddling technique. I’m merely suggesting it as an option. I believe it superior to high angle for many reasons. We can split hairs about preference, what is cruising speed, average speed, maximum speed and all the trappings, but it’s uo to the paddler to make use of the information. If someone wants more information, they csn contact me one on one.
So far, I haven’t been able to figure out if my method is any better than the next paddler’s technique. A few members have asked about paddle technique. From our conversations, I think rather than actually helping then, we more or less agree and found that we shared common technique. @szihn and I are in that category. He asked for advice and I figured out that is probably faster than me by far. I learned more about paddling and the Kalliste from him than he did from me, although he hasn’t quite figured out the technique. Before Steve, I thought the Kalliste was the greatest thing since sliced bread. I only found two people who took instantly to the Kalliste. One is my sister and the other is @StarlingGirl. She immediately pointed out the degee of control between the 240 cm and the 250 cm, and she was a novice paddler. You can learn from non-experts. What you need is an inquisitive mind. I don’t mind sharing, but I won’t spoon feed anyone. You will only learn if you have the desire to learn.
When I received initial firearms training, the lead instructor suggested a different grip technique. I expressed my presence for the method I was using, so he shrugged and walked away. I then realized that i alienated the best marksman on the staff and realized he would never offer me advice again. I resigned myself to accept his suggestions and closely watched him. That year was the first time he lost the shooting competition, to me. Before that training, I could hitba bucket at 15 yards.
Information is perishable. Get it while you can. Sometimes opportunity knocks once. If you’re happy with what you do, don’t let my arrogance dissuade you. After all, what do I know., I’m just a ham and egg paddler in a fat boat. If you think my calibrated monitoring of kayaking makes it overly complicated. You have the distinct advantage of not having to take the same anal approach. How does it go, “speed isn’t everything!” If you’re waiting for the movie version, it could be a while.
Did you read the article? seems to contradict the myth idea.
Straight from the link you sent.
What happens during lactic acidosis?
What you may experience during lactic acidosis depends on how severe it is. Some people experience temporary lactic acidosis as a side effect of overexercising. This can make you feel sore for a while, but as long as your liver and kidneys are in good condition, they’ll eventually clear it.
It’s more serious when your body persistently produces too much lactic acid, or your liver and kidneys are consistently not functioning well enough to process it. This most often occurs in the context of illness. As your blood lactate levels continue to rise and pH levels fall, your cardiac output is increasingly suppressed. This can lead to organ failure and death.
Symptoms and Causes
What are the signs of lactic acidosis?
Early symptoms of lactic acidosis include:
- Nausea and vomiting.
- Exhaustion and fatigue.
It would seem to say that Strenuous exercise can cause which results in exhaustion and fatigue, this is perhaps why you cant go at 100% except if you’re Michel Phelps, who has a genetic aberration
Athletes often get their lactate levels checked, and according to some, Phelps’s body produces half as much lactic acid as his rivals, significantly shortening his recovery time and allowing him to endure longer swims without slowing down.
So it seems if you stay exertion wise below the “threshold” you don’t fatigue, but go above which is anaerobic exercise and you will begin to fatigue.
Then comes the big question of what type of muscle fiber do you predominately have.
everyone has some of both, but some people have more of one type than the other.
a person with slow twitch is better suited for marathons, whereas someone with fast twitch is better suited for sprints.
and that’s also going to play a substantial role in how well you do, if you’re a sprinter type and engage in a marathon well you’re going to suck at it. but if your a marathoner and engage in sprints you’re going to be slow.
but this is all sports medicine and is quite well documented so I’ll not go into it further here.
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I don’t think there’s any doubt about the importance of lactate in the energy cycle, the question is whether or not it accumulates in muscle (assuming well-functioning liver and kidneys). But I agree with your observation re apparent contradictions, hence my comment on the need to dig into it further.
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Also agree. The initial shock was misunderstanding on my part thinking it repudiated other issues. I didnt look back at my post, but I may have made a generalization about lactic acid. CO2, lactic acid, muscles burn, oxygen deficit. Those are easy buz words. High angle technique doesn’t have to be anerobic. That depends on the paddle, the surface area, and the ability to keep up the cadence. The resistance provided by your paddle and the ability to repeat that resistance determines the speed. I believe the falicy about increasing speed is the notion that forcing the blade by pushing, pulling and stomping makes the boat go faster. It does, but for how long. The arguement goes: long enough for me. Ok! Story over. If you want to beat your partner to the dock that works but at what cost. I demonstrsted what happens with ME, if I push .5 mph over my aerobic limit. I can maintain that .5 mph longer, if I open my shoulder space grip 4 inches per side and go into rhythmic cleaning breaths. You can see that on my speed graphs as tight clusters of flat lines. Not elevated plateaus, just flatter with less jagged high/low spikes. That consentration is hard to maintain. At times, I can do it for 5, 10, 15 minutes. I often mark such intervals immediately after a trip. On one post, i showed jagged graph i the first segment, and flatter on the return (circled in red). The uninformed might think its from conditions. It is not. Conditions reverse with each quarter. Both legs fought the same conditions. Realize that the faster the boat moves, the less pressure is on the blade face. The faster you go, the less pressure is on the blade face, until it starts to approach the hull speed. You simply muscle through it. While i approach it with caution. You will always outpace me. Until you run out of steam, then I will continue unabated. The key to technique is how younwant to contol your energy and where you want your speed. You son is not goingbto beat you, but I believe he could dominate the 10 mile and more races. If somebody can power a 107 sq in Ikelos in either high or low angle for 30 miles, I’ll buy him or her one of them Dan Webster ceegars. I doubt that many paddlers could manage 60 spm with a 107 paddle for 10 miles. You could with 100 sq in
The bottom line is you have a natural ability such as Phelps, and you enhance it with cardio as well as anerobic. You also have fair endurance that comes from the efficiency of your stroke.
I just have a real good knowledge of what level of output I can do sustainable for any given situation for 3 mile races, I go all out because I know I can go full tilt for 20 minutes and stay aerobic, and the next 10 I will then slide into anaerobic and burn out after that 10, however in three miles. I’m only on the water for .51 hours. So i’m easily within my fitness level.
However when I’m done I need to sit in the boat for about 5 minutes before I’ve recovered enough to even think about getting out.
for longer I’ll drop the speed it seems my all day speed is somewhere 4.91-5.1 mph depending on day and how much I feel like working out It seems that this is my max for Aerobic, any faster and eventually my 02 exchange can’t keep up. but with training that time-keeps getting longer. I seem to max at my workouts at an hour, beyond that my aerobic-anaerobic time has already hit it’s max and I get nothing from further training.
Though something I did notice now playing with two different boats.
- My SPM needs to be constant at 28-30 (that counting strokes as L-R (1 stroke.) or burnout occurs.
- The Tsunami performs best near 630-Sqin paddle. due to it’s faster deceleration.
- the Tempest Looks like it’s going to perform best near 650 Sqin paddle. since it’s glide is better it’s easier to pull a larger surface area.
Using the same paddle I use in my tempest that I achieve top speed with (5.8 mph average over 3 ) miles. I’m hitting 6.3 mph over 2.5 miles) but my SPM is going to 35-40 and I’m burning out for the last half mile.
So from what I know of all the data I’ve gathered, and intrinsically how well my body performs, or doesn’t on any given day in that boat I need a larger blade to apply more force at a slower cadence to avoid burn out. and the change in SPM would then to bear this theory out.
I’d run the Ikleos but as I’ve related to you before the buoyant blades tend to want to bob up which throws my cadence off affecting performance. Lendal makes what I think I need in the Cadence X line but I’m not willing at this juncture to pay $489 to test out a theory.
so let me throw this out to the group at large… does anyone know who makes a POS paddle that is 650 sqin blade area that doesn’t weigh a ton to test this theory with.
Ueah, I figured that out. You’re still very fast in the anerobic mode. For reference, I ount a stroke as each time the paddle pushes the bost. The Ikelos issue puzzles me. Steve had the same issue.
The Kalliste is 643 sq in.
I think it would be good to see the vids taken from a drone from the side, the front, back and overhead. I wonder how close my movements are to yours. I have taken a few points from many paddlers and I can’t say I am only a low angle paddler, but I am, for the huge majority of the time.
I do find a high angle stroke will accelerate me better if I need that burst of speed, but within 4-6 strokes I am going pretty well and I revert back down to the low angle because it’s easier for me to transition to brace strokes and turning strokes from a low angle and other then sprinting, I have not seen any real-world advantage to the high angle strokes and I do see the disadvantage of it utilizing a shorter paddle (which is not as good for bracing, rolling or some of the turning strokes as a longer paddle) and I also feel aches in my shoulders if I use high angle techniques for more then about 4 hours. I’d never say it was not a better way to go fast in a straight line for a short period. I think it is better for that. But (for me anyway) for about everything else — the low angle technique seems far more practical.
Looking to the kayakers of Greenland and Alaska it seems to me that they were all using what we’d now call low angle technique and for them years ago kayaking was not a sport. It was a way to survive and prosper. I am not closed minded to other points of view, but no one yet has shown me a good opposing point of view that has convinced me those that designed the kayak and lived by it simply didn’t know how to use it well. (???)
I have had an odd relationship with the 240 CM Warner Kalliste. Overall it’s about the best I have tried, but it has that quirk I have not been able to get past. If I really go for broke and try to go as fast as I can, it flutters (rotates back and forth on it’s axis) and only using a “greenland style” of stroke , canting the blade so the top edge is forward of the bottom edge about 1.5 inches makes it go away. But doing that style, if I have a cadence much faster then about 60 Stroke Per minutes I get splashing at the catch and also some at the cut-out. Not horrible, but enough to see a noteworthy difference from it to my GL paddles, my Aleut paddles and even my Aqua Bound Eagle Ray.
Also if I put the power to it to the max I can I can hear it hiss through the whole arc in the water and see a trail of bubbles all along it’s way. I do not get that with my other paddles.
Now I do NOT want to act like I really know much about all this because I don’t. I do know I have put too much force into some of my strokes and Jyak has coached me on that problem, but what I can’t understand is why I can do “panic paddling” at times with other paddles and not hear the hiss or see the cavitation of bubbles.
When going for broke with my big Greenland or my 9 foot Aleut I can feel them flex. In fact a few months ago with an 8 foot 4 inch X 3.8" wide Greenland I snapped it off. 
Well…crap by Steve Zihn, on Flickr
With the Eagle Ray I can feel the power get heavy enough to feel like I am prying on a digging bar.
But none of the others do what the Kalliste does in my hands.
If I go about 1 stroke a minutes and give power to the stroke a bit after the blade is 100% emersed under the water I get along very well with the Kalliste. But trying to give it more power and/or increase the cadence makes it hiss. But for 8-14 hour trips at my usual cadence of about 1 per second it’s been delightful.
So far and speaking only for myself, the most forgiving paddles I have used have been the GL and Aleut types and of the Euro blade types so far the Eagle Ray is probably the easiest for me. It’s not as light as the Kalliste and so maybe for a week long trip it would not be as good. But so far it’s not been at all heavy in my hands. The GL and Aleuts float super well despite the fact they are heavier then either the Kalliste or the Eagle Ray.
So I am still learning. I am beginning to see gaps in my knowledge and seeking information or tests to satisfy my curiosity. But so far, despite the fact I have developed favorites, I am still largely ignorant of what differences there are in paddles, and why some do things they do. I cans say what my Kalliste does, but have no way to prove or disprove my ideas as to why.
Wow that’s HUGE!.
Try a Celtic paddle no bouyancy.
Most of us will be dead by then. You need a smart phone and somewhere for somebody to stand as you paddle by.
I’ve described the technique, shown the charts and graphs. Highlighted key features and still face skepticism. I’m currently working with one menber independently to see if he has the same sucess. So far he seems to be finding similar results.
Steve you and I talked in detail, at times up to four and five hours. You’ve run your paddle technique past Paulo. We paddle very similarzm, even down to the little flourish at the catch. I figured out your speed before you actually measured and timed the trips. Speed can be reaonably estimated by the bow wave if you have a basis of comparison.
You are overpowering the paddle. You broke almost as many paddles as I own. I demonstrate acceleration to people who paddle with me. You have to realize that the faster the boat moves. The less pressure you’ll have on the paddle face, up to the point where the hull speed starts to incresse that resistence. There’s a sweet spot, just like the sweet spot thst Craig showed me on the heart rate superimposed on his speed graph. There’s a transition between power output and falling performance. I don’t use a heart rate monitor, but I’ve seen the same relationship on the chart posted above with the peaks and drop off highlighted by red lines. I don’t use the speedometer specifically to see how fast I’m going, I use it to balance energy output. Most paddlers have no interest in the topic. Such scrutiny is to intense when your goal is to go out and relax. I agree, but its what I enjoy. People do crossword puzzles, I focus on paddling efficiency.
I would tell you to sit upright and put the paddle on the deck, grip slightly more than shoulder width apart. Let the paddle just clear scraping the deck. When I start paddling after a lay off, my stroke is so low, my hands get battered by banging the deck and the gunnels until I get the clearance right. Keep the paddler’s box with your arms and shoulders under isometric tension. Don’t cheat by engaging your biceps. Rotate from the waist crossing your hand over the centerline of the boat. Find a comfortable range of motion where you aren’t overstretching (recall that military exercise with arms straight out and swnging from the hips. The more natural the swing, the less tiring woth less stress. You can only go so far before the paddle is over the boat rather than the water. That reduces cadence and stroke dwell if the blade isn’t over the water. A 230 cm blade will not work for me. A 240 cm will and offers better control but not the same power range for me. 250 cm is the right combination for my grip and the 24.5" width. Once comfortable with the swing range, slice into the water with the most precise catch you can manage. It has to be clean and make each one splashless. If it splashes do it better next time. Forget about muscle and power. Dip in for a splashless catch as you stab slice and rotate. Practice that until you have a ressonable cycle, then as the paddle reaches about 90°, start shifting outward about 30° away from the boat. That motion brings your off hand across the center line of the boat. The blade is perpendicular to the water. That sideways motion changes the paddlers box somewhat, and it slips a little bit, butbzi believe thst slippage helps to gradually reduce the resistence a bit and helps to moderate effort that keeps you from going anerobic. The minimal dihedral is augmented by water flowing smoothly over the spoon curve. The paddle doesn’t stabilize like the Aqua Bound with pronounced dihedral. Where it dies shine is in the streamlined blade that has less resistance when slicing the water as compared to the Camano. The Camano is probably a better high angle paddle, because the shape would stabilize in a stabbing catch. It creates too much turbulence slicing. And it shows up when the Camano is forced; it consistently loses about .3 mph when paired against the Kalliste. If you focus on accuracy rather than power, while increasing the cadence, the boat accelerates smoothly to the hull speed without going anerobic. The problem is maintaining the rigid form. It’s easier to beat the water with the paddle than maintaining strict form, but much of it becomes automatic. The splashles catch is now automatic for me. The automatic exit is also done without any attention. If I note the time and count to 60, then look at the watch, it’ll have about 10 seconds remaining and I can count out stokes until it reaches 72 on the sixty second mark.
The Ikelos that I used was borrowed from Craig_S. He is very familiar with paddle sizing and is a powerful paddler as well.
@starmon1 obtained his Ikelos with the boat. 230 cm is too short and the blade area too large for low angle and too long for high angle. His best bet is to use it to become familiar with why it isn’t right. He needs to figure out what he feels he needs. Suggestions from the general forum often follow the line of I like this size, without regard for his technique or stature.
I’m repeatedly told I’m using the wrong size paddle, basically because I don’t have the experience to know better. Only one active person on the forum has actually paddled with me. I go by digital records of performance, not conjecture. My interaction with him makes me believe he understands the direction he needs to go for a paddle upgrade.
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Keep in mind that paddles are made in different lengths as well as different square inch blades for different physiologies. The high angle Shuna and Cyprus are 94.5 and 95 sq in compared to the low angle Kalliste at 99.7 and the Camano at 100.7 sq in, yet the Kalliste outperforms the Camano in my hands. Your experience could be different. As far as design differences, the styles are different. Even if you cant sense a difference, the manufacturer feels there is sufficient demand to maintain the inventory. In consideration of this facts, doesn’t it stimulate any interest to understand why, or is your biased opinion enough.
Jyak, why don’t you write a book on paddling?
You’ve got a good start in this discussion.