High angle paddle(too long) with low angle stroke?

The Ikleos is 690 sq in, and most WW paddles are above 700 sq in.

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CM

My Celtic is 750 CM²

Video Jyak

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Because when I answer questions only a few members show interest, while the common reaction is to imply I’m not smart enough to know how to pick a proper paddle length. I try to limit my responds to trigger questions, such as a desire to increase speed, or how to select a paddle, using a high angle for low angle or a low angle for high angle, or I have a sore shoulder. One post asked if anyone compared the speed of the same kayak model in different lengths, such as (specifically) the 125, 145 and 175 Tsunami. I must have looked like a praire dog thst gesrbthe screech of a hawk. “Oh,” says I, all three of those kayaks are in my locker. I pulled out my logs, check solo trips to similar locations under similar conditions, and felt fairly certain that the data matched my personal impressions, so I posted my impressions based on opinion and backed by data.

The reaction was astounding:

Members who didn’t even own any of those models weighed in about how you have to factor in width, long boats have greater wetted surface, depends because v hulls are faster. Hard or soft chine . . .
1000008284

I answered the question specifically, so when do you walk away?

The unfortunate reality is that any suggestions that run contrary to popular folk lore are debased, typically with widely accepted truisms, rather than facts. You can’t propose what won’t sell.

I offer an alternative opinion but if its shut down, so be it. At least the OP has an opportunity to hear an option. Otherwise, the prevailing wisdom in the kayaking world is that high angle is better
faster, straighter tracking, put you closer to God . . . , and I have no problem with that approach; it just don’t work for me. I simply disagree and will elaborate that when a new post addresses an issue. However, I have no desire to convert the world or change anyone’s technique. There’s a line by Brick Top in the movie Snatch, that can be paraphrased to sum up my view on whether my suggestion are considered:

When I give a dog a bone, I don’t check his stool to see if he ate it. The case for and against has been pitched. It hasn’t sold here and would not likely sell at the bookstore.

We want video We want video :grin:

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Video doesn’t really help.

this is the Sasquatch (me) in the Tempest 180 - I am cruising at 6.37 MPH. doesn’t look like it but that’s what we do.

I could only sustain it for about 2.5 miles as my cadence was way too high, leading me to the thought of needing more blade surface area.

(and paddling won’t let me upload video.)

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I seldom make it past the 2nd paragraph.

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Some people don’t make it past the 2nd paragraph, so what good would the book do if it was four paragraphs long.

I posted GPS charts that are roundly disputed, so why would video evidence be viewed any differently. Like Craig, I did try loading videos unsuccessfully and teslly hsve no desire to learn how. I’d rather have an endorsement from someone who tried my suggestions and benefitted. So much for writting a book about it. Besides, you already have a source immediately available to put my techniques in perspective, and that is the only active forum member who has paddled with me - Craig. No one has bothered to asked him to assess my claims. Now having paddled with him, i can verify that his claims are indead valid, and I have, yet no readers that I’m aware of have had the interest to ask him about his paddling success (high angle with a feathered blade), which suggests one of three things: skepticism, disinterest, or apathy. I’m convinced that his speeds are very good, especially for an amatuer paddler. Surely dedicated racers can do better, but his performance is impressive enough that I questioned him about his technique. Despite the difference between high and low angle technique, I benefitted from the exchange. My impression about the lack of acceptance or interest is either apathy or contentment with their present capability. As I said, my intention is not to convince anyone, it’s to offer information to novice kayakers.

Craig, I saw the video. Is that lake a no wake zone. Isn’t the speed limit 6 mph.

I regularly rode my mountain bike on a rail to trail path until they posted a 15 mph speed limit. So I went to the street. While decending a slight decline through a town at 37 mph in a 30 mph zone, I wondered if the locals had run in with bikers. Either the leather jacketed kind or the svelt bicycling shorts variety. It was fairly evident that I was a recalcitrant, because I was passing cars. I wasn’t sure whether a speeding ticket would show up on my driving record so I decided to take up kayaking for my Speed Jones.

Not sure if this is the video.

Post on YouTube put link here or just create a link and put it here. Simple to do.

So your sprint speed in the tempest is? Cruising for 2.5 miles at 6.37 average if that’s not aided by current or wind your sprint speed must be very high.

That is a picture :flushed:

Press on the picture and it then says download image. So it’s an image not a video.

You have many books written here.

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That area Craig paddles is a lake; there is no current. He posted the video to my personal email account. It doesn’t look like he’s doing 6.37 mph until he overtakes and passes a woman who says, “that’s a fast boat!” I was with him when he picked up the boat. He’s just now figuring out the right paddle combination and cadence for the boat. Craig knows the difference between wind and current assisted and would point that out.

I successfully sent the video of my granddaughter paddling to Craig, Steve and two members that I share paddling info through personal email. That was successful, but no progress with the forum page. It won’t reformat or load.

The book reports are intended for new member who ask questions, and to explain for people who don’t get what I’m saying. That’s why I now try to share off line, because there’s a more receptive exchange rather than . . . Doubt. It’s easier to exchange info with a receptive audience. I also find that I benefit from the dialog as well.

Make a link it doesn’t go to the forum .

Cool now I await sprint speed of the tempest.

I go 4 miles an hour past people and they are amazed because they do 2 mph.

I think somebody says the average speed is 3.6 mph. Most people Paddle around 2.4 mph. I can’t stand paddling with people. Most people wouldn’t paddle fast if you showed them how. They enjoy the sensation of the wave action. Steve is probably as fast as Crsig, but he’d rsther look at ducks. He didges bears in the woods, hunts elk and paddles the lakes to look at ducks. That’s what he likes to do. In fact, it was that concept that enticed me to figure out how to go faster with less effort, even with a broken flipper. I’m not faster than I was back in earlier tomes, but I work less at itvand an more consistent. It just sn’t what people want to do.

Craig is the fastest guy I ever paddked with.

Who disputed what about your GPS charts? They are what they are: one person’s personal data that doesn’t address the original topic.

What would a video prove?

You’re seem to be trying to get everyone to accept your preferred paddling style as the optimum one, but it would require a controlled study to establish that, and all we have is anecdotes. Besides, what might be optimum for a particular speed and distance on flat water isn’t likely to be optimum for other use cases.

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Agree about what would a video prove. What I can do isn’t relevant. I don’t disagree with the assertion that High Angle technique with a large blade area provides superior acceleration. I have no desire to convince you to adopt my paddling. If you don’t believe me, you might find my comments where I say Craig is far faster than me and we paddle the same boat. The difference is that he paddles a large blade high angle and feathers the paddle. I’ve used his paddles and he has used mine. We share trip data. I’ve paddled with him and his son. I also admitted to him directly that his son is faster than me. He’s on the forum, ask him directly if I offered advice or suggested any changes to his technique. I actually stated several times that is not my intention to change anyones paddling style. My intention is to answer questions for new members.

During discussions like the low angle/high angle debate and using paddles interchangeably, unsupported claims are made that I disagree with. If you contradict something that I believe, I’ll put my money where my mouth is. I post the logs. So here’s the irony. You ask for empirical evidence to back up the claims. I gave you mine. You provide nothing and accuse me of trying to persuade you to adopt my technique. To begin with, I repeatedly stated that the reason I paddle low angle is because of a shoulder injury. Still I hear, you’ll wiggle like a ducky, I compensate for that and show the tracks - No good, GPS isn’t accurate enough. I didn’t say that, show me.

RedMC, I can care less how you paddle or what you use. I won’t post videos or write books. If you disagree, make your case and back it up. Don’t do ot for me. Do it to make your case for a new person reading the post so they can analyze the data. I have a news flash. If a reader has severe arthritis in their shoulder and can’t paddle high angle, you can tell them, “lern nothing from him except what not to do! He’s nothing but a blow hard quack.” I’ll be compelled to defend myself, but what they do is none of my business. You want facts, and then when I give them to you, then you say I’m trying to sway you. That is manopulative and duplicitous.

Keep doing what you’re doing. If you see my posts, read them all or not at all. Otherwise, it appears you may have a comprehension issue. Sorry. Just trying to figure out your point. I really don’t know anything about whethervyou even paddle a kayak, what paddle you use (brand, blade area, length, paddle technique, where you paddle, your experience level, cadence, avg speeds . . . ), yet you accused me of tying to sway you . . . I’m impressed by my imposing persona. Your not the only one, my wife thinks I’m a jerk too.

there was no wind, or current. I don’t benchmark my boats in conditions that will affect speed, since I want to know what I can do under optimal conditions. and know what I can do in a given boat.

I know race day conditions could be optimal to well sub-optimal so it helps to know what you can the boar are capable of.

6.37 mph is my average sprint speed. in that boat (sprints for me are approximately 3 miles that’s the races I train for. My other boat is 5.82-5.87 (duplicatable in several races.)

my high point and low point don’t seem to change that much, usualy within .01 to .02 mph. So I’m only interested i average speed time/distance because that’s what wins races.

I am a much better longs distance paddler, usually holding to an average of 5 mph in 10-15 mile runs. and you’d think I’d start off faster, and slow, but I start off slower, even though I’m trying for faster. after about 10 minutes I start to pick up speed, at 20 minutes I generally hit my top speed for the next 30 minutes then I taper back down to my cruise speed.

I suspect that just because I need a warm up, in training I map from cold, as I want to shorten the warm up time. In racing I get out and warm up before the race.

So I can’t say for you what distance a sprint is but for me it’s 3 miles. a normal lazy paddle is about 8 and a touring paddle is 10+

if you can run an average of 6+ over 3 miles, then that’s a YP, and like I said come out and paddle with me and you can see first hand or better yet the race is in 2 weeks from 8/31 and you can still sign up day of race.

medal and gain credibility and bragging rights, or don’t. last years speed to beat was 4.8 mph in terrible conditions. 28" blown waves and river running a 3.3Mph. Surf skis lost handily due to rough conditions and getting dumped at the turns. SUP runners were more swimmers than paddlers. Race canoes and out riggers won the day over all,

so come on out from what I see of your talk you should medal in all three classes then you can lord it over everyone. otherwise…

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Done did that.