.. once you've had lessons, you can't try it without either!!! *L*
So naturally the pro-lessons opinions are coming from people who have invested time/$ in them, and/or are instructors themselves.
If you want an unbiased opinion - GOOD LUCK!
I'm neither for nor against. A lot can be learned on your own, and with paddling partners, online resources, books, etc. Clearly some respond a lot better to structured environments with others' direction and feedback. Personality and learning style have a lot to do with it.
I look at lessons more as focused sessions and tuneups, some for things may not work on otherwise. Haven't gotten around to taking any yet though, but that doesn't mean I won't. Mostly a time/place/funds thing for me.
Not true Taking lessons does not preclude experimenting on your own. It certainly hasn’t for me. Playing around freely by yourself can be pretty enlightening, actually. Then it becomes interesting if you take lessons later, to compare the “they said” with the “what I found.” And instructors don’t all parrot the same things anyway.
another BCU fanatic heard from:) I don’t have any problem with them accept that they seem to change the requirements from time to time for no particular reason other than whim–also the high level of BCU instruction is hard to find in this country—and most of us don’t have the time or the wherewithall to travel to Wales for a certification. How many BCU coaches are there in the US that can award a 5* certification or are authorized to give 5* training?
I haven't taken any safety classes yet, but plan on going to some informal group classes where rescues, recoveries, safety issues, stories, etc... are practiced and shared.
Since I have a SOT, rolling isn't a high priority for me, I can do it in my SINK under perfect conditions, but wouldn't trust myself in cold water with waves breaking on rocks 30 feet away. If I was into that kind of paddling, I certainly would be taking classes in the rough stuff.
I did get two private lessons at 90 minutes each regarding the forward stroke, since I was new to a wing paddle, and felt having a racing instructor right there giving me instant feedback would help cement what I was doing right and wrong with the rather subtle variations of forward stroke technique.
Well, I'm still last in the longer races, but I know what I am doing right and wrong thanks to the solid beginning, so I think it helped immensely.
There's a wide range of things that could be concidered as "lessons". Certainly, assistance from "paddling partners", if they have enough experience, could easly be concidered as "lessons".
People can learn (on their own) from reading and watching videos. These, too, are "lessons" of a sort. (I think that learning from videos/reading isn't really enough.)
It seems that many people here are talking about paying for lessons. Clearly, that isn't a requirement.
The purpose of lessons is to avoid "reinventing the wheel" by your self by learning from the experience/knowlege that other people have.
Clearly, many people have managed to kayak with out lessons of any sort. The question is why would they want to work that hard?
Beginners can manage without lessons as long as things stay simple.
One big benefit of lessons (with people) for beginners is that the lessons force the beginner to try doing things that they would not do.
Not what I was saying I’m simply saying anyone who has had (or given) lessons will probably not have an unbiased opinion of folks doing just fine without them (which is already proven by the comments above).
Of course you also do stuff out side lessons too - DUH! (Sorry, but it was a rather obvious and tangential point you were making).
Instructor, Guide, Or Lifeguard? I have paid for kayaking “lessons” and it was well worth it, even if I didn’t really get any “instruction”.
There are some other reasons to pay for “lessons”
I used to pay for “group surf kayaking lessons” on a regular basis, not so much for instruction as to get hooked up with some other guys for surf kayaking, and to be shown some good surf spots.
Frankly, the shop would not disclose good surf spots to any but paying customers. Repeat customers got turned on to progressively better, less known, spots.
This also eliminated my conflicts with local board surfers, because local instructors know which spots are “claimed” by the various local tribes. It beats the heck out of having beer bottles thrown at you.
Boat rental was included so I got to try several different surf SOTs, and I never even had to rack a boat!
I have also paid for private surf lessons, again not so much for instruction, but to have a really competent instructor to play lifeguard so I could go play at a spot that was really pushing my envelope. That young guy was not only a waveski champion, but also certified in surf rescue. I came very close to needing to be rescued on at least one occasion
The first time I went to the sea caves at Van Dam I also paid for “the tour” I was glad I did. You can get into trouble real fast if you don’t know the area. Besides, I didn’t have a boat with me, and the cost to rent was almost as much as the cost of the tour. Again, I didn’t even have to rack the boat, and that alone is worth a few bucks.
Your basic point about all sorts of ways to learn is spot on, but I'm looking at the original question as being about professional in-person instruction (and if folks can get that free, more power to 'em! - but it's still at a professional level) vs. everything else.
You can split hairs and re-shade the gray areas here to make any point you want, but it would help if you'd be a bit more precise and define the following terms you used:
Lesson (I don't think we should count "anything")
Experience (Needs context)
Beginner (Hope I am alway one, as it makes learning a lot easier)
Hard work (Big assumption there, and if ANY of this is work for you, I hope you're getting paid.)
Simple (as opposed to what? Super complex expert stuff?)
Force (coercion as motivation?)
Point being, we all banter these words about as if they have the same meaning to everyone. Clearly, they don't.
The last three words, as you used them, seem to express a rather condescending attitude toward beginners. Do you really think they'll all stumble around doing everything the hard way, and only ever manage the simplest of skills, and would have to be forced to go beyond that? Or is that just how is was for you?
BTW - How much to you charge for this forced skill building?
I place a high value on quality instruction, but so far I seem to "manage" OK without. Hard work has had absolutely nothing to do with it.
"Your basic point about all sorts of ways to learn is spot on, but I'm looking at the original question as being about professional in-person instruction (and if folks can get that free, more power to 'em! - but it's still at a professional level) vs. everything else."
I agree that the implication in the original posting was "in person" instruction. "Professional" implies that the instructor is getting paid (ie, instructing is a source of income). It could be that the original poster was asking about "paid" instruction (but that's a guess). Certainly, there is high-quality instruction available at no cost (the instructors being volunteers).
------------------------
"but it would help if you'd be a bit more precise and define the following terms you used:"
It's not like you have provided any definitions of these terms.
------------------------
"The last three words, as you used them, seem to express a rather condescending attitude toward beginners."
You are reading way, way too much into things here!
------------------------
"Do you really think they'll all stumble around doing everything the hard way, and only ever manage the simplest of skills, and would have to be forced to go beyond that? Or is that just how is was for you?"
Where's this "all" that you are reading? Where is this "only ever manage". Where is this "simplests of skills"? I'm dizzy with all of your spinning! These aren't in my words.
How easy will it be for (most) beginners to learn bracing? How long will it take them to discover this and other techiques?
The obvious value of lessons is that people can generally learn about things much more quickly than discovering everything for themselves.
Lessons (whatever form they take) would save many people a lot of time.
------------------------
To clarify the "force" comment: one value of lessions is that it gets people to try things that they often would not do on their own. That is, it provides a controlled situation to push their limits. For true beginners, lessons can can help them get over the over confidence that many true beginners have.
It is very, very common for beginners (not "all" of them) to be overconcerned about tipping over, etc. A lesson situation can be a big help in getting over these kinds of concerns. Note that the "lesson" could be as casual as a experienced friend giving some pointers and support!
------------------------
"BTW - How much to you charge for this forced skill building?"
You are GUESSING again!
=====================
Note that you seem to think that I think that lessons (paid especially) are a requirement. I didn't say that. I don't think that.
The fact of the matter is that many people have started out as "beginners" (ie, with no experience) without lessons and have managed well-enough.
Note that the much of the Greenland community is very "unofficial" (no "certification" stuff) but they do just fine with the mentoring/lessons stuff.
safety classes… It sounds as though you took the most useful one already…rolling. I just want to attempt to motivate you to take a couple hours a couple times perfecting your roll. If you’ve already performed a roll, fine tuning it is easier than you think if you have a video or a friend or something to break down the components of your roll…which you probably already are aware of anyway. The reason being is that effective rolling translates into much more than rolling. The comfort level you will develop in your kayak as a result of comfortably performing these movements and motions to right your kayak will amaze you. You will be more effective at everything. Also important, you will realize that you become entirely more effective assisting rescues as well. Just pulling off a roll doesn’t get you there. A lot of practice rolling and bracing does. I should also throw in that this control from both sides, meaning rolling from both sides, is all a part of it. Learning the right handed roll took me four two-hour pool sessions and a lot of frustration. Having the right hand roll, it took an hour and twenty minutes by myself to have the left hand roll. Not to pull it off, to be able to do it just as effectively from then on out. I just want to encourage you to do it and love the results. You already did the hard part. You’re some hours of consistent practice away from enormous benefits. Didn’t I previously mention that I believe practice outweighs everything? By the way, these skills also make plain ol’ flatwater ponds a lot more fun!
right answer for the wrong question The answer for the original poster is simple. You sound like someone who like to learn. You will learn the fastest with professional instruction.
For someone who paddle 35 years without instruction but would not go out at 5’ breaking wave. He obviously doesn’t want to learn how to surf 5’ wave. So there’s no point in taking any lessons.
But that’s not the answer for the origainl poster. He did ask if instruction is needed for EXPLORING beyond small ponds and rivers. So to argue instruction unneccessary for local paddle is answer the wrong question.
Though there’s nothing unique about that (answer the wrong question) on an internet forum.
5’ Breaking Waves I was not realing thinking about going in and out through the surf when I was talking about breakling waves. I was actually thinking about open water. When the waves start breaking or whitecaps. I have been out in my sailboat when the ocean was covered with whitecaps(breaking waves) in the 5’ range.
I have never played in large breaking waves. In a lake there was some chop in the 2-3’ range that I had a lot of fun playing in one afternoon.
Some people might need instruction. I have paddled with many people who took to kayaking without any problem. But one friend did mange to turn over. It was a non event. The water wasn’t very cold and he waded to shore and got back into the boat. But except for Bryan everyone that I have kayaking has had a great time with alomost no instruction.
lessons As the OP, I just want to say thanks for all the input folks. Seriously … although I didn’t intend to cause such an uproar. I do plan to take some classes based on all the good advice given here.
I actually used to do a fair amount of canoeing years ago when I lived in Georgia, mainly flatwater paddling on coastal rivers and the Okefenokee Swamp. I was always afraid to try kayaking because all the yakkers I knew were into whitewater, and I saw too many bad experiences on Chatuga River (including a guide who drowned one day while we were rafting on the river). Believe it or not, I didn’t realize there was such a thing as flatwater kayakers until fairly recently. So, anyway, I have this innate perception of kayaking as being much more dangerous than canoeing based on my earlier experiences with whitewater kayakers drowning all the time on the Chatuga (which was close to where my parents live). End of story.
Sucker! Surprised you even bothered with all that.
Of course I didn’t offer definitions. Why would I step into my own snare?
How’s about you just define: “(most) beginners”.
Again, I know what you mean, but I’ve seen way too many do way too well way too fast to lump them like that. I’ve also seen a lot of so called "intermediates with same sorts of water fears, lack of the most basic exit/reentry practice, etc.
Why separate out “Greenland” like you do? Mentoring works for all, and many G-stylers are doing their own thing much of the time - despite the clannish appearance form photos at gatherings. Most also use other sorts of gear, have taken lessons, etc.
Why draw so many lines and make so many distinctions? Seems limiting to me (looking out for "beginners - and not wanting them to buy into a lot of the dogma). Crossing the lines and mixing things up can make for some really great shortcuts too. Too many “beginners” don’t approach people who seem advanced, or into things like Greenland paddling, or racing - when those are he people who can offer them the most.
A lot of people use the two terms interchangably. But really, they're not the same.
If you ONLY go out when it's dead calm (checking and double checking the weather), your "sea" kayaking can be a flat water kayaking. However, while you local pond will almost never have white caps and whirlpools. But the "sea" can.
I come from a white water background. So I see sea kayaking as a half way point between WW and flat water. It can be flat water one minute and white water the other.
So you can choose to paddle the flat part of the "sea", or the white part of the "sea". For the "flat water" paddler, the white part of the "sea" is the "danger" to be avoided. While for the "sea kayaker", that's actually the fun part! :)
For the longest time, I was puzzled by surf kayakers. Why don't they just do white water? Silly me. The surf kayakers ask me "why don't WW kayaker come surf?"
My point is, neither WW nor sea kayaking is dangerous if you know what you're doing. Having some lesson will turn that perception of "danger" become FUN!
So, is lesson important? Depends on what you want. To have fun in the turbulant water? Yes! Or, just limit yourself in the flat water? Maybe it's not that important.
thread a bit---I'll have to turn myself into the P-net police--:) The point is that even for beginners qualified BCU coaches can be hard to find---there are maybe three in Maine, which is a kayaking mecca. None of those, as far as I know could do advanced 5* certifications.
There are more people who offer instruction who don't have the BCU coaches certification but do have BCU 4* certification or in some cases even a 5* but lack the coaching certification that the BCU requires to teach---one woman who I've taken lessons from has an ACA level 4 ocean kayak instructor cert and a 4* BCU cert. The reason why she doesn't have the 5* BCU is there is no one available to do the assesment with her--and she does not have the BCU coaching certification for the same reason yet she is a good paddler and instructor. -My point is that there are good instructors outside the BCU system and you shouldn't just limit yourself to BCU certified coaches.
1. How to plot a compass course on a chart and follow it paddling in thick fog
A) Yes I know you probably never go out when its
foggy. I have been out in brillant sunshine
twenty minutes later have been wrapped in for
with 50 yards of visibility
2. How to do an assisted rescue with a partner.
A) The assisted rescues you should learn are:
1. The T-rescue
2. The reentry and pump rescue
3. The eskimo bow rescue
4. The hand of God rescue
5. The scoop rescue
6. The all in rescue
3. How to do an unassisted paddle float rescue.
4. How to do a roll.
5. How to do a reentry and roll rescue
6. How to paddle your boat in heavy winds and waves
A) This would be necessary even though you would
never go out intentionally in conditions if you
paddle often you will be caught unexpectedly in
heavy winds and seas.
Notice I've not included more basic skills like how to get in and out of a kayak, wet exits, and basic paddle strokes.---I'm assuming you already know these or have managed to enjoy paddling without learning them.
If you never paddle more than 100 yards from shore on fresh water lakes or flat water streams in days when the temp is 80 or more in flat calm conditions, then the above skills would not be necessary--everybody here is assuming you would like to be more adventuresome with your paddling.
