All Kayaks roll at their own hull rolling speed. Just like hulls don’t care to be paddled faster beyond their hull speed. If a kayak seems unduly difficult to roll, A person might be trying to force it to roll beyond it’s hull rolling speed. Not all kayaks are easily Balance Braced…some are way easier than others, but they also have other attributes that are worthy. A prime example is the early flat rear decked Pintail vs the newer domed rear decked Pintail…totally different. All Kayaks are roll-able, {both plank rollers and log rollers} but not all kayaks are easy to learn to roll with.
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Here is a thread about the “why” and “how” of a foam masik for my RM Mystic:
sing
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Thanks, Sing. I actually already saw that in one of my searches and I was impressed. You made an ocean cockpit for yourself. I finally understand why some people like ocean cockpits better. I guess some people (read: me) have to practically fall out of their boat while lamely attempting to roll to understand…
At 5:35 of this video, you can see the downside of having a larger cockpit and skirt:
I was lucky to manage to stay upright and “paddle” back to shore rather than having to swim in.
sing
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OK, a few newb questions: so the water is moving too fast to allow you to reattach your sprayskirt? And presumably your cockpit is now filled with water so you just need to get to shore pronto?
Was that your old Delphin 150, with a 1.7 skirt? I have a Zephyr 155 w/ 1.7 that I have wondered about an implosion. My previous surf kayaks, have been 1.4s.
The implosion allowed a lot of water into the cockpit and rendered the boat very unstable. When I first rolled up, I ended going right back over. When I got up the second time, I was bracing and constantly adjusting my hips to stay upright (while wondering, “Why is the kayak acting this way!?!”). There was no way for me to get the skirt back on (which I struggle with normally even at the shoreline) without letting go of my paddle. If I let go of the paddle, I would have gone right back over. If I were try to re-enter and roll from underneath, I would undoutably be hit by one or more breaking waves while trying. I could easily get hurt in that situation.
The lack of a paddle or inability to hold onto a paddle in the surf zone is very problematic. For example, I used to practice a lot handrolling, thinking this would be a great back up. Not so in the surf zone. I had my paddle stripped one time. So I handrolled back up. I was up for a few seconds before the next breaking wave promptly hit and rolled me over again. Rather trying another handroll, I bailed and made the swim to shore, hanging on and staying on the ocean side of the boat. As you can see in the video (any my other videos), I now employ either paddle leash to my wrist, or a leash to my waveski when I am in the surf zone. I have had the paddle stripped by a wave but was able to yank on the short leash to my wrist, regain the paddle and roll back up. Some folks maintain a leash in the surf zone is dangerous. Having swam in winter surf, I much rather have the back up of the leash than not. You got to pick your “poison.”
sing
My skirt for the Dephin 150 is the Seals 1.4. It’s the same skirt I currently used with my Sterling. But, the difference is that the composite coaming on the Sterling grabs the skirt much than the more rounded and slippery RM coaming of the Delphin.
sing
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Thanks for the explanation. All I can say is you looked surprisingly calm.
I missed a bunch of the above, just dipping in on a quick read. I have been absurdly busy then flat on my back for a few days with the fastest onset old fashioned flu high fever in many years. I recommend skipping it if you can.
But what jumps out at me is not understanding exactly what the instructor at Delmarva intended. There are some obvious things - like a loose fitting boat is harder than a skinny little Greenland boat and that the volume and fit of the boat affect how you approach getting a boat upright. For ex comments from Roy, Sing, myself and others that the paddler cannot move ahead of the boat and expect to get up.
But what bothers me more and more is the paddler walked away from the class with a maneuver which I appreciate probably more than most here - but not the understanding of how to translate that to her own boat. I have had fun in skinny little SOFs and until I had to say the boat was safer in a small pond due to age, loved taking my Piedra out and doing a hand roll. Because it was so easy.
But that was not real life. Real life meant understanding and learning a normal roll - in my case a sweep - so I could execute it when my husband and I were in the drink. In the boat I normally paddled. Hence my early love of the old NDK boats. Even at over volume, my roll percentage went from 1 out 3 to 3 out of 3 the very first time I was in the pond in my Explorer LV (which was just a tighter fit) rather than the old CD Squall. It was all about hull design.
DoggyPaddler, if I were to give any advice right now it would be to stop messing around with completing what you are calling a roll and focus on simply being able to maintain a solid balance brace on both sides in the Montauk. Outfitting etc. Sculling even better but is you can’t hold the boat on its side that will also be an issue. Then see if you find pool classes over the winter/spring, and work with someone on one of the more normally taught rolls, including work IN your own boat.
It sounds you got great work at Delmarva and I do not want to diminish any of that. But I also am not hearing a match between the understanding you left with and a useful approach towards making sure you are safer in your own boat.
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Hope you’re feeling better by now, Celia!
Since Delmarva focuses on Greenland technique, I think their objective is to teach Greenland style rolls, and my understanding is that a butterfly roll is usually one of the two first taught, the other being the sweep roll with a layback finish, which is also the roll we were beginning to learn in our sea kayaks with our Euro paddles.
While the second roll seems more overall useful to a sea kayaker, I wouldn’t say that right now my chief objective is to get a combat roll. I’m not yet paddling in very cold or rough water. Yes, I do want to do this eventually, and yes, I do want to be able to roll a sea kayak effectively. But I’m currently content to have learned that I CAN do a roll, and it gave me some necessary confidence.
Also that was the first time I learned a balance brace (the morning of the day I did the first butterfly roll) and I definitely feel that gave me valuable knowledge and practice that will be applicable to rolling. And I did achieve a balance brace on one side with the Montauk. Had we outfitted it appropriately ahead of time and if we had better cold water gear I think we would’ve gotten further with it. But every new bit of learning has helped. A “real” roll in rough water is a goal, but I’m a paddler in progress.
And also I may just end up wanting to paddle a tighter SOF more often… I’m still experiencing new boats and new ways of paddling, so I have a lot to think about!
My Riot Edge 13 has a beam of 25". Is that considered ‘wide’ in this conversation?
I know really skilled people can roll just about any boat, but by way of comparison my Montauk, which seems like it’s going to be hard for me to learn to roll, is 22” wide. The one I actually did roll was maybe 21” wide with a lower back deck and less overall volume. But keep in mind I weigh 130 so a bigger person might find it easier.
Yes, that is wide (beamy); yes it is rollable.
There is a difference between a boat that can be rolled - which is a large variety once someone has the mechanics down really well - and boats that appropriate to learn in.
25" wide is not an appropriate boat to learn in. Too much of a pancake and just prompts a string of discouraging fails for most who are new at it. Skinnier, lower volume and shallow decked all make it easier.
The question mark is what boat is best suited for someone to learn in so they walk away with a practical skill. The easiest boat to roll may be one, as DoggyPadler is experiencing, does not leave them with skills that can be easily transported for success in a different boat. This is not to say rolling a skinny little rail is not a lot of fun, it is. But you need to think about the capabilities you need within your regular paddling.
Paddling solo ups the ante for being in a boat that you can roll if you want to try nastier conditions. Because it changes the time spent in the water from at least couple of minutes to less than ten seconds.
To be fair I am a complete newbie to rolling and I spent one day learning. I imagine if I had lots of time to practice in warm water with my Montauk appropriately outfitted I could learn, eventually, to transfer the skills.
I said “easily”. Like you can hop in your own boat and do the same without a lot of further prep.
I totally agree you can solve the problem in the Montauk. But you are having to move thru some fundamental steps, like outfitting, from scratch.
True!
My Riot Edge 13 has a beam of 25". Is that considered ‘wide’ in this conversation?