I am going to Raleigh
but am willing to go out of my way a reasonable distance to check one out. Isn’t there a big outfitter in Georgia and South Carolina too?
Paul
advantages / disadvantages
Reading the reviews on the Artic hawk I am befuddled (not uncommon with me). What I am hearing is that it needs weight, weeathercocks badly, does not take surf well, is a horror in following seas, needs a skeg, and more. In the same paragraphs though, everyone talks about how much they love the boat.
what is reality?
The OI reviews are a lot more complimentary but not without their harsh criticisms also.
I really really liked the OI even though I had a bit of trouble getting in. Yes it is a pig to turn but you can do it. (Easier with a GP for me) I felt no weathercocking at all but again that may be because of my 200lb frame. Moving the seat forward a bit and lowering the height a bit will position my thighs where I am used to for bracing. Also the rear of the seat would need to be tilted up a bit so that I would have a more comfortable angle to slightly lean forward.
Paul
Goes Back To What I Said
– Last Updated: Oct-23-05 6:25 AM EST –
to you before you bought your first boat and you were go through the same mental gyrations, go out and demo each in some wind for some hours. People have different perferences, skills and requirments of their boats. Despite what is written, their positive may not be yours, nor their negatives.
An example is when I paddled Chuck's Nordkapp out from San Fran Bay. I (and others had thought) that I would not like the boat because its reputation as a tracky expedition boat that is tippy without a load. Well, I actually found the boat very reassuring and easily controlable without any ballast in the bulkheads. I actually enjoyed in out in the swells and thought it was a very nice point A-B boat, even without a load.
sing
PS. Good luck on building up your fleet like some of us. After two, start finding hiding places so your wife doesn't see...
so true
I have already surpassed my quota of comments about a “greenland boat” and or the “Outer Island”.
I have to vent here as the subject is not open to discussion in our household anymore. At least not without a “you’re not really thinking of buying another boat are you? YOu just bought the Tempest”. “but honey, you see, each boat has individual characteristics suitable for…” That’s about as far as I get…
There is a storage place about half a mile down the road that would fit 8 or 10 boats really nicely on a custom rack…
drive right up…no waiting.
Paul
Oooh… And Down That
secretive and dark path we travel, with a glint in the eye and a contained smile with thought of forbidden fruits.
sing
secretive routes
After some pretty sneaky maneuvering on my part getting her into various boats and making opinions on her own, she has chosen either the Hurricane Phoenix or the Ocean Kayak Scupper Pro as her boat of choice so the initial stage will be to buy her whichever one she wants. Then I have a bit of leverage…grin
I will be beginning BCU training as well as getting some greenland instruction during the next couple of months and as she sees the commitment and the enjoyment I am getting out of all this she should loosen her claws from the treasure chest a bit. She really doesn’t have a problem with it, just wants to be sure that this isn’t a fly by night hobby I guess.
Paul = deprived (only one boat so far)
Another Review
Check out this review by my friend Dan who I paddled and kayak camped with all summer.
http://stormpaddle.com/OuterIsland.asp
Indeed it is a fine boat but not for me as it’s just too tracky and I prefer an ocean cockpit.
There are actually some leecocking issues that you should be aware of but they might be corrected by seat placement or ballast.
It has very little freeboard which explains why it excells at greenland maneuvers.At 18 feet it’s a lot of boat to haul around and load on the roof,if you just want a rolling machine something in the 16 foot range might be more practical.It is a very pretty boat but tiny so loading for camping trips was always a challenge.
It needs an ocean cockpit,a little more rocker and cockpit placement to create a bit of weathercocking and you would have a real slick kayak.
Bert
review
I had read that review before…good stuff. While I fit in the boat, I am/was concerned if I could get just a bit more room inside, hence my suggestion to take out the seat altogether and just put in a foam seat hopefully lowering me into the boat by about an inch. Also I need to go forward about an inch to get the thigh braces in the right position. the ass end of the seat had to be tilted up a bit as I felt myself leaning back in the boat but again, I should be able to correct that with the new foam seat.
While it feels comfortable, I wonder if I am just trying to put in 10 lbs of crap into a 5 lb bag. Or I guess I could lose another couple of pounds.
Paul
AH vs OI Entry
I have had both boats. (still have one for the moment)
It is far easier to enter my Arctic Hawk than it ever was for my Outer Island!!
The Hawk has 1 extra inch of deck height and the cockpit, while shorter, is shaped better for entry than the OI. Getting into the OI was always ending up with a skinning my shins, whereas the AH is easy. Also, I always had to sit the rear deck of the boat to get in - as I am 6’2".
Note: I also have a SOF - so this is all a moot point as the comparison of getting into the AH is like falling in vice the SOF.
yup
Medicineman, I would consider you a larger paddler at least in regards to height. I’m 5’8" and 145 lbs and I consider myself a medium sized paddler. Your height/weight seems to be a good fit with the Arctic Hawk. As for entering the kayak, all kayaks with an ocean cockpit are a bit more difficult to enter. Yes you typically have to sit on the rear deck and slide in with your legs straight but it’s nice to be locked into the kayak once you’re in. A keyhole is nice for entering/exiting the kayak in surf or during self rescues, but I prefer the ocean cockpit in general for sea kayaks. Heck, after spending some time getting in and out of my rolling qajaq, everything else just seems to be HUGE! 
having owned both…
could you give me some honest pros and cons between the two boats and especially compared to a sof (which is what both these boats are trying to emulate anyway…
thanks.
Paul
"trying to emulate"
Well, sort of. More like trying to keep some characteristics while still catering to hardshell/bulkhead/hatch market - and with sizing that’s one size fits many.
Of course, if you really like the Arctic Hawk - but are budget/spouse conscious - you could just get the kit. S&G is a little easier build than OI strip. Too bad Mark Rodgers doesn’t license all the Hawks designs. Hawk SS is even nicer.
Without serious modification most S&G won’t get you close to the custom fit and performance of SOF. If doing S&G there are other more LV options than the AH though…
Why not just build a SOF? You know you want to. Vera already knows you are nuts. SOF is cheaper so you won’t have to hide it! Just hide the tool receipts (depending on what you have now and how you build) and only count the materials. Downside is you’ll end up with two hobbies.
Start with Cunningham and Morris’ books. Compare and contrast their methods. See what seems right to you. Let the process kick around in you head a while. I had the books a while before I started mine. Good info in them even of you never build.
Of course, some time in an OI or AH would help decide just what to build if you eventually do. So many options!
SOF is a great idea…
Good advice, but I would suggest starting with Mark Starr’s book. His methods are a bit easier than Cunningham’s and create a very nice boat. Reading all three books provides a range of options.
You can build an SOF to make a great rolling boat (better than almost any production boat) and if you use a narrower beam than you’d find comfortable to open ocean use, paddling it will greatly improve your balance. Also, the boat will be much lighter and easier to carry around (prevents back/shoulder injuries).
Ralph
as we were preparing for Wilma
my daughter brought me a kit for making a jewelry box. Seemed simple enough, just glue and use finishing nails assembling about 12 pieces.
took me an hour and used up every bit of my woodworking skills.
and you want me to build what?
Seriously though, you are right. Vera knows I am nuts, I am a little budget conscious (read cheap) and the best option is to build a skin on frame boat.
As I am sitting here on the computer listening to Wilma howling outside, the prospect of having something to do when the weather is bad is appealing, especially if we move to NC.
I will get the books and see if I feel it is even feasible.
Paul
“Strong Cat 3” now.
Power’s out - but still have Internet! Eye is massive. Might even end up inside, or worse just outside…
Hope you fair well.
No work today, so once the daylight returns I may be able to work on the boat, though I was thinking power would be nice to cut the masik and knee brace (they don’t call it HARDwood for nothing!) and to go over the gunnels and deck beams with the sander to clean them up a bit before pegging/lashing.
power just got back on.
we are safe and sound. some minor damage but we were lucky as all the trees are down and a lot of the neighbors had trees fall on their cars.
Paul
My view of OI, many strengths
I have paddled Jay Babina’s OI wood vesions, several generations and have owned a carbon kevlar Impex 3rd generation OI for a year. I find it has many stengths and the few lesser qualities do not matter for what I use it 85% of the time for.
Since NO boat does everything equally well, your use of it dictates whether it is a sweet boat for you or not. Strengths are:
- Very efficient and fast in flat water. I can easily maintain 5K, makes it a very good boat for crossings, hence its name.
- Very low windage- makes it very efficient for big wind conditions. Easier to handle too.
- Slow slow turning, but predictable and great tracking. Yes this boat has to be edged allot to turn, but it does turn and very predictably. This is an advantage in all but surf and rock garden conditions. Once on a track, no energy needed to get where you want.
- With a thin foam seat so you are low in the boat, the stability of the primary and secondary makes for a very secure and safe ride in big conditions. This is very confidence inspiring. I get the same sensations in only my NDK Explorer. This to me is more important than is it a good rolling device.
- Ease of rolling is an issue, all boats are not created equal and it is not just ease of rolling but how little energy it takes to scull translates to safety, that is abilty in terrible conditions to stay in your boat if repeatedly knocked over. I feel this is a big safety factor of the OI
- Straight leg position is a plus for me at 6’3". I like a semi straight leg position and so do not feel confined it. There are few low volume boats that allow taller paddlers this fit.
What about the down sides?
-a few light paddlers find it leecocks. This is because the boat is so neutral to begin with not a flaw. Unlike other boats with strong weathercocking, the OI is neutral. If you are a light paddler, I suggest simply having Impex place your seat 1 inch or more forward, or use a foam seat you can adjust or stow your godding in the front hatch. A very small change in trim makes this go away. I have tested this with a number of friends and it is corrected.
-hard to turn. Yes, very little rocker, and if your weight is over 170 lbs. the boat is further in the water. So, yes slower to turn. However, the bow does not fall off as readily in high winds so this balances out this tendency. Turning up into wind is slow but easier in this way. It is not a boat I most especially want in surf or rock gardens. But this is what a plastic boat is for anyway! Who wants to crush their FG or CK boat anyhow?
-low volume can’t expedition. True, unless like me, you have ultralight ultra compact gear. I can take 5 days woth of expedition gear, water, etc in it. I rides low in water, but rock stable. Yes you cannot put as much weight in it, it would be a submarine!
-following seas, it may pearl. True, Very good for follwing seas, Does not broach easily. But, DO hold back going down a wave face or you will plant the bow. My higher volume Explorer is much safer in big seas for this condition. Simply hold back, stop paddling down a wave face or paddle backwards.
Overall it is a joy to paddle this boat, so efficeint, on many club outings its forward speed and low windage make it effortless.
Hope you find it helpful.
Evan
Good Review.
It’s true, for those inclined, weatherhelm can be changed by moving the seat. Wouldn’t it be nice if companies can come up with a seat that slides up or back a notch or two. A lot of white water boats allow this. For a hanging composite seat, maybe three or 4 (reinforced) holes on the side the coaming.
sing
sing so so so true!
I too have wished for this, and you are so right, it would take very very little to accomplish this!
My foam seat method is to use 3M Dualock on the front sides of my seat. I can reach down and “unhook” the seat and slide it forward or backwards while under way. This is exatly like in my Bell canoe with a forward sliding seat. It allows a near instant change in boat trim. This simplifies boat trim problems during expeditions as well, not just changing conditions.
It also allows one to “sink” the bow or stern more as a method traveling in beam or quartering seas, much like a skeg, so I can run in a specific direction without use of a skeg on the boat. Yes, not as quick as moving a skeg up or down, or edging away, etc., still a cool thing to have.
foam seat method
duolock? where can I find more information on this?
Paul